Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

The overall consensus from forum members has been the JF-17. Which in itself is a very capable aircraft and could go head to head with an F-16. With that said the one thing that concerns me regarding the JF-17, is the RD-33/RD-93 engine. There seams to be a tremendous amount of controversy surrounding the reliability and maintenance requirements for this power-plant. I would hate to be at the mercey of Russian supply pipline for parts and maintenance. However, I imagine that an in-country engine overhaul facility could be part of the deal.
The thought of J-10s with modern Israeli avionics is what I would like to see. But alas the buget is not there to aquire these beauties in suficient numbers.

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Pakistanis have said that the JF-17 is somewhat 70% of an F-16. And the whole program itself started when pakistan was under arms embargo in the 90ties. It maybe a cost - effective solution , but is is not a serious contender against aircraft like the EF Typhoon or even later F-16 blocks.
What wonders me , does someone on this forum have any idea of the characteristics of the radar , and the weapons suite that is integrated NOW in this jetfighter.

The Su-30/35 family would be the best option for the argentinians if they want to be taken seriously, the formidable weapons load, fuel capacity and electronics on the later Flanker variants would make them a factor in the region.

Mig-29 has shorter range, so its not that well suited for a country like argentina.

I wonder have some argentinian air force personnel had visits to Venezuela to see they Flanker opertaional experience ?

And what about the F-1s argentina is buying, is there some detaiil about the upgrade package ? MICA, new gen-Exocette or something ?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

To Mirage Driver;

Firstly, may express my deepest regard for the bravery and valor shown by Argentina, to stand and fight against an imperialist country. It was Argentina's courage to take on the vastly superior British Imperialist forces, that has my respect.

Now, before I reply to your topic, I would like you to know that I am a Pakistani and as such, we have certain things in common. Like the betrayal of a Western country for supply of spares and weapons replenishment, during a war. For Pakistan, it was the United States and for Argentina, it was France.

Remembering this very important lesson, it is necessary to invest (to the best of your abilities), in a qualitatively equal or better, Non-Western option. In part because, the western countries tend to abandon, betray or side with the opponent, than you, during crisis.

Argentina ought to invest in a mix of high-to-medium performance fighter-jets, which should be procured on the basis of part/full transfer of technology and particularly, enhanced stockpiling of related weapons, rights. Diversification of Air Assets is essential to ensuring endurance of military capability, during war and sanctions.

Ideally, Argentina should take a serious look at China and Russia for viable options. Fighter-jets such as the China-Pakistan (Joint Fighter) JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 Xiaolong, Chinese J-10B Vigorous Dragon and Russian Su-35 Super Flanker or MiG-35 Fulcrum.

Given Argentina's vast territory and long coastline, the country really ought to look at fighter-jets with longer range (J-10B, Su-35) for Air-Superiority roles and Maritime Air Dominance roles. As such, both Russian and Chinese options, in combination, would prove to be the most effective against the European consortium fighter, operated by the Brits.

Russian Yakhont and Chinese C-803K's should be procured in stockpile numbers and configured to be carried by either fighter-jets, Su-35s and J-10Bs. Also very important, is Argentina investing substantially in procuring high-performance/high-grade Surface-to-Air Missile defense systems such as the Russian S-300s and the Chinese HQ-9s.

These would go long way in ensuring the protection of Argentinian Air Assets against potential British Offensive Counter-Air missions on Argentina.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

On another note, I think it is in the best interests of Argentina, to enhance trade, cultural and military ties with Russia, China, Venezuela and maybe even Pakistan. Having a superpower as an ally bodes well for a country, in crises. I can only imagine, what the present would have been, had Argentina had access to or had stockpiled substantial quantities of Exocet Missiles, in it's arsenal. The British forces would have certainly withdrawn, had it lost more of it's Royal Navy ships.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

SkyShadow said:

Pakistanis have said that the JF-17 is somewhat 70% of an F-16. And the whole program itself started when pakistan was under arms embargo in the 90ties. It maybe a cost - effective solution , but is is not a serious contender against aircraft like the EF Typhoon or even later F-16 blocks.

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I have heard rumors that an JF-17 was test flown in at the Tandil air base in the province on Buenos Aires, However I have no been able to confirm that this actually happened so please don’t take my word on this incident.
In talking to acquaintances in the Air Force the main stumbling block in the possible acquisition of the JF-17 continuous to be the RD-33 engines. This bias of opinion that has formulated in the minds of pilots and planners is mostly derived from the experience and comments made by Peruvian Air Force personnel regarding the performance of the RD-33 installed on the Mig-29. Another issue is the cost of the JF-17, since second hand F-16’s (which will never be purchased) can be acquired at, or below a new JF-17’s acquisition cost. The third strike could be the unknown long-term durability of the aircraft and the fact that it is not “combat proven”.
I’m not saying that this is a bad aircraft. On the contrary, I believe that it has potential. I’m just expressing the bias that is stopping the aircraft to be seriously considered by the Argentine air force.
Many pilots have told me that they would love to get their hands on the SU-27/30 and have it be incorporated into the air force roster. I personally think that a mix of Su-27/30 and J-10 would be a good investment in national defense.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

My brother and his wife went on vacation to Chile and Peru last month for vacation. When they went for breakfast one morning at a hotel in Chile they've came across about a dozen pilots and my brother noticed the patch on their shoulders has a flag of Argentina. He was wondering why would a bunch of Argentinian fighter pilots doing in Chile, until I mention to him about the latest tension going between the UK and Argentina regarding the Malvinas or Falkland Island. He went ask one of the pilots what were they doing here out of curiosity, and they were nice to reply to him that they were conducting some kind of flight training and exercise (reason and what kind, they can't answer that) with Chile. Then it came to him as why there were no ferry or cruises making any trips from Chile to the Malvinas or Falkland Island, even small flights are canceled. My question is, is it common for Argentina to conduct training with Chile, as far as military?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Equation said:

My brother and his wife went on vacation to Chile and Peru last month for vacation. When they went for breakfast one morning at a hotel in Chile they've came across about a dozen pilots and my brother noticed the patch on their shoulders has a flag of Argentina. He was wondering why would a bunch of Argentinian fighter pilots doing in Chile, until I mention to him about the latest tension going between the UK and Argentina regarding the Malvinas or Falkland Island. He went ask one of the pilots what were they doing here out of curiosity, and they were nice to reply to him that they were conducting some kind of flight training and exercise (reason and what kind, they can't answer that) with Chile. Then it came to him as why there were no ferry or cruises making any trips from Chile to the Malvinas or Falkland Island, even small flights are canceled. My question is, is it common for Argentina to conduct training with Chile, as far as military?

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The air froces of South America perform several joint aerial combat training exercises, the first of which started in 2004. Among the more important are Cruzex ( Portuguese: Exercício Cruzeiro do Sul ) which is hosted by the Brazilian Air Force, Salitre ( English: Saltpeter ) hosted by the Chilean Air Force and Ceibo ( English: Erythrina crista-galli flower ) hosted by the Argentine Air Force. The goal is to train together in order to respond to a crisis or integrate into United Nations peacekeeping operations as a unified team.
The exercises include combat search and rescue, aerial refueling and combined air operations center training opportunities focused on interoperability.
The pilot your borther and his wife saw may have been there for this very operation. However these exercises usually take place between September and Novemeber.

There is also an American Argentine joint aerial excercises called Gringo-Gaucho.
The Argentine Navy continuously operated an aircraft carrier from 1959 to 1990. When ARA Veinticinco de Mayo was retired, it was decided to keep an embarked air group with the hope of operating a carrier again in the future. In order to qualify the pilots, the traditional friendship with the Brazilian Navy has meant that Argentine naval aviators have continued to operate from the deck of the Brazilian aircraft carriers Minas Gerais and São Paulo during ARAEX exercises.The only other choice available was with the United States. As the United States Navy does not maintain regular deployments of aircraft carriers in the South Atlantic it is necessary to wait for one of them to perform a transit within Argentine coastal waters. The opportunities occur when the ships perform a transit around South America to move between the East and West coasts of the United States since they cannot fit through the Panama Canal. The exercise is coordinated by US Naval Forces Southern Command and unlike with the Sao Paulo the Argentine aircraft perform Touch-and-go landings only and do not fully embark on the carriers.


[video=youtube;fc9yNM4_Kgk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc9yNM4_Kgk[/video]

---------- Post added at 09:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 PM ----------

Dizasta1 said:

To Mirage Driver;

Firstly, may express my deepest regard for the bravery and valor shown by Argentina, to stand and fight against an imperialist country. It was Argentina's courage to take on the vastly superior British Imperialist forces, that has my respect.

Now, before I reply to your topic, I would like you to know that I am a Pakistani and as such, we have certain things in common. Like the betrayal of a Western country for supply of spares and weapons replenishment, during a war. For Pakistan, it was the United States and for Argentina, it was France.

Remembering this very important lesson, it is necessary to invest (to the best of your abilities), in a qualitatively equal or better, Non-Western option. In part because, the western countries tend to abandon, betray or side with the opponent, than you, during crisis.

Argentina ought to invest in a mix of high-to-medium performance fighter-jets, which should be procured on the basis of part/full transfer of technology and particularly, enhanced stockpiling of related weapons, rights. Diversification of Air Assets is essential to ensuring endurance of military capability, during war and sanctions.

Ideally, Argentina should take a serious look at China and Russia for viable options. Fighter-jets such as the China-Pakistan (Joint Fighter) JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 Xiaolong, Chinese J-10B Vigorous Dragon and Russian Su-35 Super Flanker or MiG-35 Fulcrum.

Given Argentina's vast territory and long coastline, the country really ought to look at fighter-jets with longer range (J-10B, Su-35) for Air-Superiority roles and Maritime Air Dominance roles. As such, both Russian and Chinese options, in combination, would prove to be the most effective against the European consortium fighter, operated by the Brits.

Russian Yakhont and Chinese C-803K's should be procured in stockpile numbers and configured to be carried by either fighter-jets, Su-35s and J-10Bs. Also very important, is Argentina investing substantially in procuring high-performance/high-grade Surface-to-Air Missile defense systems such as the Russian S-300s and the Chinese HQ-9s.

These would go long way in ensuring the protection of Argentinian Air Assets against potential British Offensive Counter-Air missions on Argentina.

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Thank you very much for the kind words regarding the bravery of the Argentine Pilots that did their duty give the poor equipment and leadership given to them. However, please refrain from calling the English “Imperialist”. They where reacting as any nation would when territory flying their flag is invaded.
The betrayal of the west to Argentina was a self-inflicted wound. America and France need to side with Briton due to treaty obligation and the long-standing history between them. With that said, I agree that the situation placed Argentina in a difficult situation (not only during the war, but afterwards with the embargo). It is therefore important for nations to be self sufficient in regards to national defense. Otherwise that nation becomes subject to the foreign policy whims of the nation providing the arms.
Brazil and to a certain extent Chile, are the two nations that learned this lesson. The Brazilian weapons industry is amazing. Not only are they able to produce many of their own armaments, they are also able to service them.

Personally I would love to see a couple of squadrons of SU-27-30 and a superior number of either F-16’s or J-10. Wishful thinking aside the reality is that this is not going to happen. The best prospect that Argentina has is to continue the existing cooperation with Brazil. And join them in the Rafael purchase and to develop their own combat aircraft. A type of LAC or a continuation of the SAIA-90 or the Novi Avion?
The C-302 and the Yakhont would make excellent missiles to acquire, in addition to the more modern air-to-air missiles.
It will be interesting to see how South America will change in the near future with the expiration of the Antarctic Treaty.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Thank you for the explanation Miragedriver.

"There is also an American Argentine joint aerial excercises called Gringo-Gaucho."

Seriously? I thought the words Gringo and Gaucho are offensive (just curious)?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

In talking to acquaintances in the Air Force the main stumbling block in the possible acquisition of the JF-17 continuous to be the RD-33 engines.

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The problem is not so much with the engine itself but more with the technical support that MiG gives to his products after they sale them.
The RD-33 is not a engeneering miracle, so if Argentina has a good aviation maintanence industry they would not have problems with maintanance and overhaul of the RD-33. And the RD-33 has matured after its initial introduction in the 80ties.
So its up to the argentinians , if they will have a combat jet witch runs on the RD-33 , better make a good deal with russia for supprot and maitanence.
But then again, the JF-17 it self is based on the MiG-21, so even with good avionics its nothing special .
Now , i know that from the eurocanards the Gripen no matter how advanced its avionics and armament is, its basicaly the weakest in dog-fights due to the fact that it has the weakest engine.

Then again, a combat ready air force requires its pilots to have a lot of flying hours. In NATO standarts that means 120-180 hours for a fighter aircraft pilot a year. So if the JF-17 is cheap to maintain and support that would mean , more flying hours for the pilots.

About J-10, its avionics, at best it are comparable to a F-16 block 40 or MLU.

In the end it all comes up to that what requrements the argentinians have for they own air force ?

If its going to be another fight around the maldivas/falklands ( witch here nobody wishes, but they are talking about anyway ) The only fighter that is a formidable opponent to the Typhoon is something from the Su-30/35 family .

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Agreed. That is another point, the support issue. The argentine aviation industry has been able to keep the museum vintage ATAR engines in flying condition for almost four decades. Of course the ATAR is a simple single shaft engine. I believe you are correct in your assertion that the RD-33 should be simple to maintain. After all the Soviets (and later the Russians) like to keep thing simple.
I also agree that the bet is on a mix of Su-27/30 and J-10’s or Su-27/30 and F-16’s. The first option would make logistics and maintenance easier.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Do not agree with accuracy of this author but could be informative on China Latin American Military Engagement,