Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Thank you for the information. I wonder why the W11 was selected. It is more of light utility/scout/liaison helicopter than a combat helicopter. Argentina already fabricates the Hughes 500.
Where did you see this article?
 
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Thank you for the information. I wonder why the W11 was selected. It is more of light utility/scout/liaison helicopter than a combat helicopter. Argentina already fabricates the Hughes 500.
Where did you see this article?

Argentina has been evaluating the Z11 for the past few years. I speculate that the reason is to build a light weight helicopter to develop their defense industry independently much like China did with the EC-120, Z-11 and then Z-9. If successful, they hope to further develop the relationship to develop their aerospace and defense industry independent of American and European suppliers. They remember the Malvinas War where critical parts were withheld by American and European government in support of the British.

Z-11 is a good first step and is sufficient for their current needs.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

How about JF-17 Block II or the J-10B? That will given them a price advantage and an air to air advantage when compared to Eurofighter and Rafale.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

How about JF-17 Block II or the J-10B? That will given them a price advantage and an air to air advantage when compared to Eurofighter and Rafale.

The overall consensus from forum members has been the JF-17. Which in itself is a very capable aircraft and could go head to head with an F-16. With that said the one thing that concerns me regarding the JF-17, is the RD-33/RD-93 engine. There seams to be a tremendous amount of controversy surrounding the reliability and maintenance requirements for this power-plant. I would hate to be at the mercey of Russian supply pipline for parts and maintenance. However, I imagine that an in-country engine overhaul facility could be part of the deal.
The thought of J-10s with modern Israeli avionics is what I would like to see. But alas the buget is not there to aquire these beauties in suficient numbers.
 

montyp165

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

The overall consensus from forum members has been the JF-17. Which in itself is a very capable aircraft and could go head to head with an F-16. With that said the one thing that concerns me regarding the JF-17, is the RD-33/RD-93 engine. There seams to be a tremendous amount of controversy surrounding the reliability and maintenance requirements for this power-plant. I would hate to be at the mercey of Russian supply pipline for parts and maintenance. However, I imagine that an in-country engine overhaul facility could be part of the deal.
The thought of J-10s with modern Israeli avionics is what I would like to see. But alas the buget is not there to aquire these beauties in suficient numbers.

The WS-13 is said to be in production, so engine supply may not be as big an issue as it may initially appear.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I may have asked this question before of forum members, but I do not remember if I received a reply.
How to you see the reliability of the WS-13 compared to the RD-33 or RD-93? Is the MTBO approaching that of western engines?
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

The overall consensus from forum members has been the JF-17. Which in itself is a very capable aircraft and could go head to head with an F-16. With that said the one thing that concerns me regarding the JF-17, is the RD-33/RD-93 engine. There seams to be a tremendous amount of controversy surrounding the reliability and maintenance requirements for this power-plant. I would hate to be at the mercey of Russian supply pipline for parts and maintenance. However, I imagine that an in-country engine overhaul facility could be part of the deal.
The thought of J-10s with modern Israeli avionics is what I would like to see. But alas the buget is not there to aquire these beauties in suficient numbers.

WS-13 has started to go into final stages of testing. It shouldn't be long, and if it really requires, RD-93s might be bought for temporary or even the WS-10.

What makes you think Israeli avionics would be an advantage compared to the current J-10A, much less the J-10B? PAF pilots said that the J-10A's radar is every bit as able as the ones seen on F-16 Blk 52. Not to mention the J-10A defeated the J-11A with a thirteen to one ratio with their radar.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Well here is the final word (maybe)

The Mirage F-1’s that were purchased from Jordan for $100 million (consisting of 12 Mirage F1CJ fighters and one F1BJ trainer) are near the end of there upgrade in France and will be delivered to the FAA in the second quarter of 2012. The remaining Mirage IIIEA/DAs are due to be withdrawn in 2012.

In a separate move also intended to enhance its air force's air defense capabilities, the defense ministry is purchasing of two Saab 340s equipped with Erieye airborne early warning radars.

The developments come after defense minister earlier this month outlined a short-term plan to bolster Argentina's military aviation elements.

Two Mil Mi-17V1s were bought under a $20 million deal to restore the air force's heavy lift helicopter capability, lost since the deactivation of its last Boeing CH-47C Chinook.

Funds have also been allocated to overhaul and modernize the army's three Eurocopter AS332B Super Pumas, and to complete a Huey II upgrade to part of its Bell UH-1H fleet.

A new tri-service helicopter school at Campo de Mayo will also receive five new Bell 206Ls.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

As stated in the daily newspaper “La Nacion”: Argentina has already rejected buying the UAE's Mirage-2000-9's, which were offered by Dasault when UAE purchases Rafale (personally I think that if they brought the UAE's Mirage's and French SEM's then Argentina would have an effective upgrade to its forces) then the only realistic options I can think of for Argentina would be to either develop it's own light fighter program or JF-17.

Based on previous posts that assert that Argentina would never consider non-European/US aircraft (one must remember that they did purchase 3 Mi-17 helecopters, and that the attitude towards non-European/US aircraft is changing. (otherwise logically they could license build JF-17 with a Snecma engine, French avionics - i.e. combat management system, ESM and radar, and integrate their existing weapons along with Mica/Meteor).

Personally I don't really think the Kirchner administration will buy any combat aircraft (other than the acquired Mirage F-1 as a stop gap measure). As another note the AT-68 Pampas, the defense ministry has contracted the construction of 18 airframes, but not the purchase of their systems (engine, landing gear, avionics, etc). This was only a decision to keep the factory working. Now they announced the total will be of 40, but there's no contract signed yet with FAdeA and most inside the air force, including many brigadiers, don't believe they will really buy them.

In case they build 40 airplanes, the idea of the Air Force is to use some for an aerobatic team, maybe others could go to the Navy and the rest it's very probably they will finish at the Grupo 6 de Caza (the other Mirage squadron), at least to keep pilots flying until something is bought (surely, after 2016 at least). The idea to use Pampas to replace the Mirages is not new. Initially the idea was to send some A-4AR, but not there are not enough in service and not enough spares.

---------- Post added at 06:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:54 PM ----------

Here are some interesting documents that present offers to purchase F-16’s from the American government:

Offer from 2003
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Offer from 1999
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

The United States Air Force (USAF) will be retiring approximately 249 aircraft from its inventory, according to what the newspaper Defense News in its edition informs in its May 25th edition from last year. This represents a little more 10% of the USAF present inventory of 2,360 combat aircraft. For several Latin American Air Forces this can be a unique opportunity to update inventory at low cost with second hand American aircraft.
Unfortunately the ideological blindness of some Latin American countries can work against this great opportunity. With the stead march forward of the lethal F-35 and F-22, the Secretary of the United States Air Force, Michael Donley, announced the reduction in the number of combat aircraft. The USAF will count on reducing within the next couple of years; 112 F-15 and 134 F-16, from its inventory. Additionally for the first time the budget of the USAF does not include monies for purchases of more F-15’s or F-16’s, which the total commitment towards the introduction of the F-35. These second hand 246 F-15’s and F-16’s can be an opportunity for the majority of the Air Force in the region.

Argentina, first in the list by alphabetical order, has a serious necessity for modern combat aircraft. Their Mirage III and derivatives are obsolete platforms without any military value. In addition they are dangerous to fly. The A-4 AR, although modernized and with new avionics installed in the 90, is an aircraft of low benefits compared with the rest of the aircraft in Latin America. A replacement of the Mirage family by ex--USAF F-16 shows itself like a prudent and sensible option. However the stopgap ex-Jordanian Mirage F-1 will at least keep the Mirage III pilots flying.

Bolivia: For ideological and practical reasons, it does not seem that this new infusion of used aircraft on the market affects Bolivia. It is difficult to see Evo Morales purchase American Aircraft. Additional difficult that the United States would approves the sale, and on the other hand they are not airplanes that the Bolivian Air Force needs. The purchase of surplus L-159 was announced this year. The Emb-314 would also be the ideal aircraft for Bolivia.

Brazil is not only looking for the best modern combat aircraft, but also a deal that would include a fair amount of technology transfer. For that reason the FX-2 program is vitally important not only for their Air Force but also for its industry. It would seem then that this second hand opportunity does not fit in Brazils plans. But then again the F-X program was cancelled and resulted in the purchase of ex--French Mirage 2000. Could it happen again? Not probable, but one never knows.

Chile, with its recent purchase from Holland of a second hand F-16 MLU, plus the ones purchased from the USA gives them a respectable force of 48 (F-16 MLU and F-16 Block 50). But additional F-16 purchases are always a possibility, although the option of European MLU has more possibility than ex--USAF versions.

Colombia seems fully committed with its Kfir C-10. They have taken great effort to purchase more and modernize their Kfir’s. Colombia is counting that they can counter the breach that separates them from the neighboring Su-30. Here the purchase of ex-USAF F-15 would fit perfectly.

Ecuador: Its Sepecat Jaguars retired without replacement, the Mirage F-1 and Kfir, although able, are already getting along in years. Ecuador is one of the countries that but benefit from this new situation, however ideological reasons will prevent the Ecuadorian Air Force on obtaining the F-16. Would the United States authorize the sale? Would Colombia be in agreement? It seems impossible.

Mexico could benefit by replacing its F-5 Tigers, or to supplement them. Although fighters are not a priority in their present fight against the drug cartel, the Mexican Air Force has always maintained a small but efficient nucleus of them. The SAAB Gripen is a temptation and a desire. However, the price of F-16’s might turn the scales and be too good to pass up.

Paraguay would not seem to be interested, and a purchase of this magnitude would even go against its recent efforts to homogenize a small force around useful platforms that satisfy its needs. Brazil is the main supplier and donor for the Paraguayan Air Force. And for Paraguay this is the best option.

Peru could be discarded as a possible purchaser of F-15’s and F-16’s. In March, of last year, the Peruvian government signed contracts to modernize its MIG-29, so there is little probability that they will make so drastic a change from Russian to American, but it’s not impossible. With the recent expansion of the number of Chilean F-16’s, the F-15 or the F-16 could find their place.

Republic Dominicana and Guatemala already chose (very well) the Super Tucano. They do not need to spend on expensive aircraft when the Super Tucano fulfills their needs effectively and efficiently.

Uruguay does not seem to be a candidate, since these airplanes are 4th generation and cost more than the Air Force can afford, or support. The Pucaras will continue to serve as a capable aircraft. In the future the Emb-314 seems like the natural replacement.

This is a great opportunity to rebuild the present fleet, of the combat aircraft of the Argentina Air Force; I hope that the corresponding authorities make the correct decision.
 
Top