Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

Status
Not open for further replies.

Volpler11

Junior Member
Registered Member
Should PLA conduct a quick amphibious assault after a brief bombardment using shock and awe or sit back and conduct a prolonged thorough bombardment to siege Taiwan until Taiwan is unable to fight back before risking sending a landing force.

Pro of shock and awe is it will end the conflict quicker, possibly reducing the chance of international assistance/sanction, reduced civilian casualty, but riskier.
On the other hand, the same factor makes Taiwan harder to attack, makes it harder to resupply and limits its option to counterattack. China would be able to leverage its industrial capacity to make lots of bombs.
 

lcloo

Captain
I was shock when seeing the PLA soldier blowing horn to signal his comrades to forward. This should only happen in WWII when the Eighth-Route army (八路军) fought the Japanese.
It is just like telling the enemy that "Hei! we are here! we are here!", and inviting bullets, artillery shells and bombs coming right at you.

I hope they don't do that in a real fire fight.
 

pakje

Junior Member
Registered Member
As this is likely the first mass conflict where both sides have acces to body armour.

Has anyone noticed either side going to a full size rifle cartridge or some other kind of effect?
 

lych470

Junior Member
Registered Member
可喜的是,那熟悉的军号重新响起——我军司号制度恢复和完善工作已全面展开。根据中央军委训练管理部部署,从今年10月1日起,按现行规定全军恢复播放作息号,下达日常作息指令。新的军队作息号种包括起床号、出操号、收操号、开饭号、上课号、下课号、午睡号、午起号、晚点名号、熄灯号、休息号等11个标准号谱。明年8月1日起,全军施行新的司号制度。新的军队司号制度规范了军号使用的时机场合,并明确了司号员吹奏与播放号音相结合的司号形式。采取兼职为主、专职为辅的方式调整编配司号员。原有的名目类、勤务类、战斗类、仪式类四类109种号谱,将精简优化为作息类、行动类、仪式类三类21种号谱。作息类号主要用于下达日常作息指令,区分部队在营区内、营区外、海(境)外驻扎和执行任务等情况分别规范;行动类号主要在组织战备演练、执行任务或遇有突发情况时使用,通常由司号员吹奏,也可以采用电子号音播放;仪式类号主要在组织礼仪活动时使用,通常由司号员吹奏。

309c236f8da41d1c645162.jpg

It is just like telling the enemy that "Hei! we are here! we are here!", and inviting bullets, artillery shells and bombs coming right at you.

I hope they don't do that in a real fire fight.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The bugle calls are more for regulating everyday garrison life - it'll be used for things like getting soldiers out of bed, getting them to do calisthenics, to eat, to lights out, etc etc. The article also mentions it being used in exercises, emergency or during missions, but I don't think that's what the buglers are being trained for.

It's being revived purely to maintain a tradition.
 

Ex0

New Member
Registered Member
The problem with Taiwan is less the area but more the terrain. You will basically enter into a city fighting phase from day one. And you cannot do what the Russians are doing here, making people evacuate the main cities. They will have no place to evacuate to.
As for communications you guys seem to be forgetting submarine optical fiber cables. Those would have to be cut.
That's why information war is most important. Along with morale and initial casus belli. This is where Russia fucked up. They needed to do false flag attack on Russian mainland, using Ukrainian rocket or something across the border. Then they should have done propaganda war for like week or two before they went in, allowing for surrender before that, and the whole time broadcasting that there was genocide going on in donbas. They wasted their RT america and RT assets which they had built up for years, and now they got banned without even being able to affect much.

So taking that into consideration, it starts off with say a false flag attack on mainland china. Empty shopping center, or few shopping centers, whatever. Broadcast that to the world. Generate outrage. Then broadcast that Taiwan was responsible and they crossed the line, and also do anti usa propaganda, say it was US weapons they used or whatever and that US played a role in it somehow. This is to pre empt the inevitable anti china propaganda coming from US. Being the first one to do it counts for a lot. Most don't trust usa already, and china doesn't have bad history and has built up a lot of political capital over decades, so this shouldn't be too hard. Considering that the whole world has had enough of USA's lies, iraq WMD and everything else. Shouldn't be too hard to get the world on chinas side, but the main target here is to divide Europe. That's the real fence sitter. Especially Germany and France and Italy.

All the above is to setup for invasion and regime change and to take out the threat to china's security. Broadcast this as the goal. During this time before blockade, tell everyone in Taiwan who is not an enemy to leave Taiwan RIGHT NOW. because shit will go down soon, if you stay then that is your own fault. China should set up and help anyone to leave who wants to. Setup some place in mainland to host them. If china can lockdown cities of tens of millions for covid, this should not be too hard. Ask civilians in china to help host a patriotic family from Taiwan if they can. Ain't no thing. Get as much innocents out as possible beforehand.

Then do a blockade. That is the first level of escalation. Offer them to surrender within a day, otherwise missiles will take out all Taiwan military assets and bases and other useful wartime assets like energy and comms. Even water and food. Again give another day for them to reconsider and surrender, otherwise it will move onto next phase of escalation.

If no surrender, then broadcast that china is going to level the cities and whole island if needed by X date. This is the last chance for surrender before china fully commits. After that there will be no more holding back. This will be done before PLA assaults the island. It will be done during the blockade phase, and after all the initial missiles have dropped and taken out all above ground military targets.

You offer a humanitarian escape route and broadcast to the world a safe zone anyone who wants to escape needs to go to that area. You do nonstop propaganda that Taiwan is using human shields, and taking hostages and not letting anyone leave, and arming all civilians. Show those photos that Taiwan military themselves revealed that shows them camouflaging their military vehicles as civilian trucks and cranes, and stuff like that. You offer Taiwanese citizens to surrender, and offer them Chinese citizenship, and any Taiwanese troops who surrender likewise similar offers, maybe even more. You divide the troops, you divide the people. Hopefully the people and soldiers see logic and get everyone to surrender, or even fight and overthrow their own soldiers.

During this time there will be drones hovering above nonstop, with endless loudspeaker propaganda and doing leaflet drops, and also recording and streaming any atrocities of Taiwanese troops killing their own civilians trying to leave or surrender, or even fighting Taiwanese troops. Stream and broadcast that shit to the world nonstop. If need be do false flags with double agents already planted on the island long ago pretending to be taiwan military abusing the innocent civilians and using them as human shields. It shouldn't be too hard to win the propaganda war if china gets it's shit in order. Sounds harsh but just find some civilians who support Taiwan or something. It's a war, shit happens. They made their choice which side they wanted to support.

Then after all that, whoever is left, is an enemy, and china goes in with mission to liberate the island from Taiwanese military who's oppressing their own people and using them as human. Shields.

This is the easy part. Just use overwhelming force. Use drones to counter manpads etc. China can do drone swarms and just win with more cheap suicide drones than they have ammunition for the manpads. For anything else they can just use the heavy bombers or naval assets surrounding the island from all sides. Taiwan isn't that big. China could even just setup artillery from big container ships. And bombard all the shores to clear the way for landing if they want to save their more expensive guided weapons.

The key will be drones, and mass numbers of them. China's advantage is numbers and manufacturing. China doesn't need to waste it's good stuff on Taiwan, it can save them for usa. Just use lots of cheap mass produced loitering ground attack along with suicide drones. Like those ones they use for those airshows. They are probably cheaper and easier to make than manpads and manpad ammunition.

Would be easy to clear and secure one beachhead with liberal use of drones and everything else china has in it's arsenal. Once china can secure landing zone it's game over. Boots on the ground just need to mop up and clear out the cities, or what's left of them if they refused to surrender. If Taiwan chooses to fight and be like Grozny, so be it, they made their choice. For everyone else they can relocate and live on the mainland while china rebuilds taiwan.

Just curious. How long do you guys think Taiwan could hold out if china blockaded it after destroying everything on the surface including energy, water, and food production/stocks? Could Taiwan even feed/sustain itself?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think the thing that would have impressed China the most would have been Russia’s initial helicopter operations, especially since that is an area they have already been massively investing and expanding on.

The way I see any armed reunification (RU) to go would be a massive Shock & Awe 2.0 missile and air strike on all fixed targets on the island as the opening salvo.

Drones will move in as the first wave, with manned platforms hanging slightly back for support. The primary goal would be SEAD/DEAD, damage assessment of the initial strikes, mop up and target of opportunity strikes.

There will probably also be limited amphibious and air calv operations to capture outlying islands as prep work for the main amphibious fleet.

I am doubtful the PLA would emulate Russian first day massed helicopter assault tactics because the distances are too great; the outlying islands would present massively increased risks; the helicopters ould be coming in over water and much more exposed; and because everyone will have seen the Russian move and now be prepared for it.

Instead, I see it more likely that the PLA would maybe use a variety of means (submarine, gyrocopter; HALO jumps; helicopter insertion etc) to deliver special forces teams early in the conflict to act as scouts and spotters to call in strikes to supplement airborne and space based sensors.

Once the UCAVs come on station, they will not be going. Those things can stay on station for days on end and will be subbed out once they are running low on fuel or shot down.

The goal is unrelenting maximum pressure from the first minute of the fight.

If you don’t take out the drones, anything that moves is subject to immediate or very short kill-chain attacks.

Try to shoot at a drone and PLAAF Wild Weasels will be on you almost immediately. Even if you do shoot down a drone or two, replacements will arrive on station almost immediately.

After maybe a week of this, with special forces teams call in additional air strikes, that’s when the massed helicopter assault might take place. Proceeded by a massive UCAV wave who will scour the route and LZs for any sign of movement.

I think that’s how the PLA will clear and secure the beachheads so the amphibious assault will come in with minimal to no defensive fire.

Once the heavy armour starts rolling ashore en mass, its game over and all that is left is mop up.

Power and communications will be taken down and kept down from day one. It doesn’t really matter if hardcore idiots try to hole up in the cities. Those will be surrounded and sieged initially, with the priority being to secure the east coast to prevent outside interference.

I don’t think the PLA can afford to assume there won’t be city fighting, or that they can do it cleanly, since I think the hardcore TI fanatics will very like emulate Azov and actively prevent civilians from leaving the cities to use them as human shields.

As such, I think the PLA needs to invest significantly in the many types of unmanned ground combat vehicles and small arms drones they have been showcasing.

Rather than waste money adding APS to takes and IFVs, instead use that money to buy massive amounts of drones to send in first instead.
 

LCR34

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think the thing that would have impressed China the most would have been Russia’s initial helicopter operations, especially since that is an area they have already been massively investing and expanding on.

The way I see any armed reunification (RU) to go would be a massive Shock & Awe 2.0 missile and air strike on all fixed targets on the island as the opening salvo.

Drones will move in as the first wave, with manned platforms hanging slightly back for support. The primary goal would be SEAD/DEAD, damage assessment of the initial strikes, mop up and target of opportunity strikes.

There will probably also be limited amphibious and air calv operations to capture outlying islands as prep work for the main amphibious fleet.

I am doubtful the PLA would emulate Russian first day massed helicopter assault tactics because the distances are too great; the outlying islands would present massively increased risks; the helicopters ould be coming in over water and much more exposed; and because everyone will have seen the Russian move and now be prepared for it.

Instead, I see it more likely that the PLA would maybe use a variety of means (submarine, gyrocopter; HALO jumps; helicopter insertion etc) to deliver special forces teams early in the conflict to act as scouts and spotters to call in strikes to supplement airborne and space based sensors.

Once the UCAVs come on station, they will not be going. Those things can stay on station for days on end and will be subbed out once they are running low on fuel or shot down.

The goal is unrelenting maximum pressure from the first minute of the fight.

If you don’t take out the drones, anything that moves is subject to immediate or very short kill-chain attacks.

Try to shoot at a drone and PLAAF Wild Weasels will be on you almost immediately. Even if you do shoot down a drone or two, replacements will arrive on station almost immediately.

After maybe a week of this, with special forces teams call in additional air strikes, that’s when the massed helicopter assault might take place. Proceeded by a massive UCAV wave who will scour the route and LZs for any sign of movement.

I think that’s how the PLA will clear and secure the beachheads so the amphibious assault will come in with minimal to no defensive fire.

Once the heavy armour starts rolling ashore en mass, its game over and all that is left is mop up.

Power and communications will be taken down and kept down from day one. It doesn’t really matter if hardcore idiots try to hole up in the cities. Those will be surrounded and sieged initially, with the priority being to secure the east coast to prevent outside interference.

I don’t think the PLA can afford to assume there won’t be city fighting, or that they can do it cleanly, since I think the hardcore TI fanatics will very like emulate Azov and actively prevent civilians from leaving the cities to use them as human shields.

As such, I think the PLA needs to invest significantly in the many types of unmanned ground combat vehicles and small arms drones they have been showcasing.

Rather than waste money adding APS to takes and IFVs, instead use that money to buy massive amounts of drones to send in first instead.
APS is definitely a good thing to have, especially against ambush. Probably they need APS that can counter top attack atgm. That is the worst threat tanks are facing now.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
APS is definitely a good thing to have, especially against ambush. Probably they need APS that can counter top attack atgm. That is the worst threat tanks are facing now.

APS would be good to have, but it’s too passive and limited for my liking.

If you roll a tank into an urban area without proper support and recon, no APS is going to save you from a line of guys taking turns to throw RPG/ATGMs your way.

This is why I favour drones.

Have ground combat vehicles and automatics grenade launcher quadcopters go in first to clear out the ambushers or at least make them waste the ammo on the drones and expose themselves for the tanks and IFVs to engage.

I think the mobile laser based anti-drone systems China is development have great potential as anti-ATGM units at longer ranges with some more development and improvements. I think investing in something like that to act as dedicated missile defences for armour units would be far more effective and efficient than spamming APS on every armour vehicle that don’t really deal with top attack munitions effectively anyways.

As an added bonus, such laser defence systems would also be highly effective against drones.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top