Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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ACuriousPLAFan

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Based on China's current military force disposition at the hands of the PLA CMC, having #2 and #3 are only sufficient as long as the PLAN warships stay within and around the Kyushu-Mindanao Line (KM Line), i.e. just marginally beyond the 1st Island Chain. In order to approach the 2nd Island Chain and go any further with credible strength and firepower projection would require #1 to be further buffed and strengthened.

The Kyushu-Mindanao Line (KM Line). I didn't manage to insert the illustration before the 20-minute grace period expired, so here it is.
KM Line.jpg

KM Line is what I believe to be theoretically the maximum possible extent which PLAN warships could operate to, while still able to receive sufficient support and cover by the PLAAF and PLARF from mainland China and bases on the SCS islands, WRT the Taiwan scenario. Anywhere further would significantly increase the risks and dangers possed by American, Japanese, British and Australian forces against Chinese warships.

One caveat - If the Chinese bases on the SCS islands are rendered inoperable from enemy attacks, then the KM Line would be reduced to KL Line, i.e. the Kyushu-Luzon Line (marked in yellow).

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ACuriousPLAFan

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NK can do plenty as China’s ‘max’ attack dog.

If NK jumps in and is actively engaged in combat operations alongside China from the start, that guarantees SK stays out of the fight as its Korean War 2.0 otherwise. That’s infinitely preferable to actually having to fight Korean War 2.0 if SK was already engaged before NK.

NK can also happily threaten to hit targets and/or actually hit targets that are politically inconvenient for China to strike directly.
The US and Japan won't be able to touch the Chinese mainland in a significant way. Why would you give them the excuse to bomb North Korea again? The Koreans will stay out of it, but neither them nor the Russians will complain about Chinese planes flying over their territory on the way to Japan. They might shoot down the Japanese if they attempt the same of course
After reading through, I generally agree more with @Minm here.

Based on the present conventional military capabilities of North Korea and Russia, by having them participating in the China-US war over Taiwan now and in the near future would result in more of a liability than an asset for China. This is especially considering the losses suffered by Russian forces in the ongoing war in Ukraine, and the problems plaguing the Russian armed forces.

Meanwhile, I would refrain from putting the North Koreans on any level better than the Russians, TBH. Sure, both of them could throw punches, but whether they are capable of taking punches is an entirely different matter. Personally, I don't think Beijing would like to entertain a new front in the Korean Peninsular (plus the increased possibility of a third front, in case the Indians gets cocky as China's attention is directed at WestPac).

Therefore, I believe that it would be in Beijing's interests to keep Russia and North Korea out of direct participation in the war over Taiwan, unless the situation for the PLA is dire enough that the stakes for both Russia and North Korea would be significantly affected in order to warrant a direct intervention.
 

drowingfish

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Kyushu-Mindanao Line (KM Line). I didn't manage to insert the illustration before the 20-minute grace period expired, so here it is.
View attachment 105440

KM Line is what I believe to be theoretically the maximum possible extent which PLAN warships could operate to, while still able to receive sufficient support and cover by the PLAAF and PLARF from mainland China and bases on the SCS islands, WRT the Taiwan scenario. Anywhere further would significantly increase the risks and dangers possed by American, Japanese, British and Australian forces against Chinese warships.

One caveat - If the Chinese bases on the SCS islands are rendered inoperable from enemy attacks, then the KM Line would be reduced to KL Line, i.e. the Kyushu-Luzon Line (marked in yellow).

View attachment 105441
i like your illustrations here, but i would like to consider additional variables. lets say the PLA fights taiwan, and absolutely clobbers the latters anti-air and even anti-ship capabilities, then PLA will be able to project further out. on the other hand, if Taiwan's anti-air assets survive the onslaught, then the island becomes a nice screen for USN JPN etc. it is hard to see the PLA making it out of the east china sea in that case.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
After reading through, I generally agree more with @Minm here.

Based on the present conventional military capabilities of North Korea and Russia, by having them participating in the China-US war over Taiwan now and in the near future would result in more of a liability than an asset for China. This is especially considering the losses suffered by Russian forces in the ongoing war in Ukraine, and the problems plaguing the Russian armed forces.

Meanwhile, I would refrain from putting the North Koreans on any level better than the Russians, TBH. Sure, both of them could throw punches, but whether they are capable of taking punches is an entirely different matter. Personally, I don't think Beijing would like to entertain a new front in the Korean Peninsular (plus the increased possibility of a third front, in case the Indians gets cocky as China's attention is directed at WestPac).

Therefore, I believe that it would be in Beijing's interests to keep Russia and North Korea out of direct participation in the war over Taiwan, unless the situation for the PLA is dire enough that the stakes for both Russia and North Korea would be significantly affected in order to warrant a direct intervention.

Despite the shortcomings of keeping Russia and North Korea from directly participating in the war over Taiwan, China can definitely utilize Russia and North Korea's military, geopolitical and geographical potentials to her advantage.

1. Keeping the Korean Peninsular stable:
The key here would be to keep South Korea from directly participating in the war against China on Taiwan.

That means North Korea will have to do its usual job and present itself as yet another significant enough threat, such that South Korea would rather allocate more effort into guarding against North Korea and minimizing their contribution to the Taiwanese separatists' cause. Doing large scale military exercises would be a good method. Russia's Eastern Military District and China's Northern Theater Command could also chip in and help North Korea by particpating in their military exercises as well.

However, care must be taken such that South Korea is not too agitated by the KPA's military actions, causing Seoul to falsely believe that going to war with Pyongyang and Beijing is worth the trouble. For that, Beijing should provide firm guarantee to Seoul that Pyongyang would keep its actions under control, and that neither side is looking forward to restart resume the Korean War, in exchange for South Korea to not directly participate in the war and provide military assistance to Taiwan.

There is a fine line to balance here.

2. The China-North Korea-Russia airspace corridor:
The key here would be the triple-point narrow corridor (TPNC from now on) which I have outlined in the H-20 bomber (with H-XX, JH-XX) thread:
h20s8.jpg
The corridor is less than 60 kilometers long, which can be travesed at high-subsonic speeds in less than 10 minutes.

To conduct reconnaisance, survillence and strike missions against targets in Japan, Chinese warplanes would only need to use this TPNC as a shortcut into the Sea of Japan, instead of having to circle around the Korean peninsular and risk interception by USAF and JASDF fighters from Kyushu and Shikoku.

Even if Pyongyang is unhappy with this kind of airspace intrusions by Chinese warplanes, what can they realistically do? China and Russia are the only countries keeping North Korea afloat by this point. There is nothing for Pyongyang to do but lodge diplomatic protest against Chinese warplane intrusions - But that's on the surface level.

Besides, the avenue where American and Japanese forces exploiting thie TPNC to attack targets deep inside China's Dongbei should be expected. Hence, for the under-the-table level, there is something which North Korea can assist China with. There are two options for Beijing and Pyongyang:

2a. North Korea should intercept any American and Japanese warplanes and missiles that are exploiting the TPNC:
This would save China some effort, as North Korea joins in with the defence of the China's northeast. In addition, China can also provide the KPAAF with fighters and SAM systems to do the job, on top of the ones they already own.

However, doing so could potentially rile up the Americans and Japanese, (and it wouldn't look good for North Korea on the international stage) such that Washington DC and Tokyo may choose to join forces with Seoul and invade North Korea in order to clear a path for them to launch direct assaults against China's Dongbei, hence reigniting the Korean War and forcing a second front upon Beijing.

2b. North Korea should not intercept any American and Japanese warplanes and missiles that are exploiting the TPNC:
This is a safer way to prevent the Americans and Japanese from finding justifications to attack North Korea, since Pyongyang isn't doing anything to stop their incursions into China as well. However, this would result in the task of intercepting American and Japanese warplanes and missiles be shouldered by the PLAAF and PLANAF stationed in the Northern Theater Command alone.

Despite having this demerit, there is something else which North Korea could make the jobs of the defending PLAAF and PLANAF units easier, which I will explain in the next point.

3. Intelligence gathering, information-sharing and early warning:
Firstly, back to the TPNC above the North Korean airspace.

Expecting that the American and Japanese forces would exploit the TPNC, Chinese fighters plus SAM systems would have to intercept them by themselves without any help from the KPAAF. However, China can provide air-search and early-warning radar sets to North Korea. These radar sets would be stationed inside North Korean territory, facing the direction of South Korea in the south and the Sea of Japan to the east. They would provide early warning to fighters and SAM systems stationed in the Dongbei to commence interception whenever American and Japanese warplanes and missiles are spotted flying towards the TPNC.

This is a small part of a larger, general idea which China could employ the help of North Korea and Russia for collecting intelligence from American and Japanese forces and movements based in the Sea of Japan, Honshu and Hokkaido.

The KPAAF has no such platforms, so they're totally out.

The VVS does operate a number of AWACS, SIGINT and ELINT aircrafts, which definitely can come in handy for the PLA. Since Russia isn't participating in the war, they can freely operate above the skies of Far Eastern Russia and over the Sea of Japan in order to monitor the distributions and movements of American and Japanese forces in the region and pass on the information to the PLA. But before any of these could happen effectively, joint PLAAF-VVS communication and integration between AWACS, ELINT and SINGINT units needs further work.

Despite this, I am not still entirely convinced by the VVS' capability in this - By looking at their rather limited deployments in the ongoing war in Ukraine. Perhaps China can "sell" a couple of WZ-7s and/or WZ-10s to Russia, have them painted in VVS colours, and fly them over the Sea of Japan using Russian crew oversight with Chinese personnel oversight from the ground in Russia.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
The idea of Russia as a neutral ISR provider is something I lifted earlier as well and believe is their most optimal role.

However I disagree that NK shouldn't be directly involved. First, NK doesn't really have a choice, unless China explicitly forbids them.

Secondly, opening a 2nd front is not a disadvantage but an advantage for China, which has the land army advantage here.

China will not be using the whole 1.4 million ground forces to defend Taiwan. In the first place, it is impossible to get so many troops there during war. So most of the ground force will sit idle... Unless... They can be used in a conflict on the mainland.

KPA provides all the weight of numbers needed to hold gaps, as well as plenty of battlefield artillery, while PLA can punch through and has huge amounts of precision weaponry.

It is my belief that should America invade China, China should actively strive to create a 2nd front on the Korean peninsula. It should use the overwhelming threat of war and destruction to force Seoul into condemning the American invasion, joining sanctions against America and completely closing airspace to the Americans.

These demands are inherently unequal and painful for Seoul to bear, but their only choice will be between bearing them and staying independent, or get rolled over by a PLA backed by KPA that otherwise would be doing nothing important anyways because China can only transport so much troops to aid the island if US navy is actively hunting the troop transports.

We must think in the worst case scenarios where US succeeds in taking over Taiwan, a conquest of the peninsula will still give China enough strength to stay in the game.

Taiwan is one of China's more important provinces, bordering the sea and having fairly urbanised population. Likewise, South Korea is an important area for westerners, culturally speaking. Therefore, even if the American invasion succeeds, a counter invasion in Korea will serve as an immensely potent rally point for Chinese resistence.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
i like your illustrations here, but i would like to consider additional variables. lets say the PLA fights taiwan, and absolutely clobbers the latters anti-air and even anti-ship capabilities, then PLA will be able to project further out. on the other hand, if Taiwan's anti-air assets survive the onslaught, then the island becomes a nice screen for USN JPN etc. it is hard to see the PLA making it out of the east china sea in that case.
Yup, that's a major issue.

Of course, it would be of the utmost imperative for the PLA to wipe out the ROCAF and conduct effective SEAD operations across the entirety of Taiwan as soon as hostilities begin in order for to guarantee the safety of PLAN warships when they operate east of the island later on.

If the ROCAF is still up and running after the initial bombardment waves, PLAAF and PLANAF warplanes would either have to fly amongst the Ryukyu Islands in the north, or through the Luzon Strait in the south to reach and cover PLAN warships operating east of Taiwan. Both these routes risk interception by American and allied fighters from bases in Japan and the Philippines, in addition of any ROCAF fighters still flying.

One way or another, depending on whether Japan and the United States intend to intervene in the AR of Taiwan at any given point in time or not, China needs to plan her own area-of-denial (AOR) alongside the associated responses accordingly.
 

a0011

New Member
Registered Member
not necessarily, artillery has different ranges.

Penghu is ~50 km from Taiwan proper and outside the reach of literally every single Taiwanese artillery piece, which maxes out at 45 km for the Thunderbolt 2000 MK45.

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Yet that distance allows for PLAGF 300 mm MRLS to establish fire control over the entirety of Taiwan.
if you put your "strategic" heavy artillery assets there, the Taiwanese will find a way to take them out. In fact you can bet on it. If they don't have that capability today, they will by the time you take Penghu. It is vital to their survival to prevent Penghu from being used as a PLA firebase. Due to the small areas of operation, PLA arty cannot "hide" as easily from the certain counterbattery fires.

It's a no brainer; one with no military knowledge can apricate the strategic importance of Penghu for long range artillery systems with its airfield. In fact, it's one of the biggest threats to Taiwanese forces opposing both the central and southern PLA axis (groups of forces tasked to advance on Taichung, Tainan and Kaohsiung.). It's importance will be elevated much higher in the event that China for whatever reason fails to establish air-superiority rendering the PLA tactical aviation irrelevant.

Therefore it's where the hammer will fall the hardest. From Taiwanese POV, Penghu must be bombed non stop with whatever means available. Hence why I said I feel sorry for the poor gunners tasked to serve there.

This doesn't mean PLA shouldn't place long range arty on Penghu. They definite should try to establish a firebase but must have the flexibility to react to their enemy and change strategy if need be. In other words, don't be like the stubborn idiots high up in Russian command sticking to the same wrong approach and suffering needless casualties.
 

a0011

New Member
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Over 80% of the global population live in countries which have not sanctioned Russia.
These countries comprise 60% of global economic activity
80% of these live in tropical warm climates and have not industrialized enough to consume a tiny % of gas Russia used to be able to sell.

Case closed, Russia is economically fked and has no future. No point to keep debating this lol.
 

bebops

Junior Member
Registered Member
I like quantity over quality.. Most of U.S tonnage goes to 10-12 carrier which weighs over 100k ton each. If one direct missile could disable or sink a carrier, then its useless whether you have 50k ton or 100k ton ship. at the end, it is still one ship.

I believed the YLC-8E radar is legit and very compatible. To my understanding, its an ALL-IN-ONE radar that detect alot of bands and wavelengths. If they make a navy version of that and install it onto a frigate in additional to hypersonic missile. its more deadly than Ford carrier or Zumwalt.

I rather have 40-50 of these small tonnage frigate go toe to toe with 1-2 US carrier. The price tag might come out to the same as an carrier group anyways.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
if you put your "strategic" heavy artillery assets there, the Taiwanese will find a way to take them out. In fact you can bet on it. If they don't have that capability today, they will by the time you take Penghu. It is vital to their survival to prevent Penghu from being used as a PLA firebase. Due to the small areas of operation, PLA arty cannot "hide" as easily from the certain counterbattery fires.

It's a no brainer; one with no military knowledge can apricate the strategic importance of Penghu for long range artillery systems with its airfield. In fact, it's one of the biggest threats to Taiwanese forces opposing both the central and southern PLA axis (groups of forces tasked to advance on Taichung, Tainan and Kaohsiung.). It's importance will be elevated much higher in the event that China for whatever reason fails to establish air-superiority rendering the PLA tactical aviation irrelevant.

Therefore it's where the hammer will fall the hardest. From Taiwanese POV, Penghu must be bombed non stop with whatever means available. Hence why I said I feel sorry for the poor gunners tasked to serve there.

This doesn't mean PLA shouldn't place long range arty on Penghu. They definite should try to establish a firebase but must have the flexibility to react to their enemy and change strategy if need be. In other words, don't be like the stubborn idiots high up in Russian command sticking to the same wrong approach and suffering needless casualties.
Can their F-16s carry strike payloads while being shot at by PLA SAMs and fighters? How many F-16s can they trade for artillery?

How many HIMARS can they buy with the backlog in Europe by the time the hammer falls?

Penghu also has a non negligible urban core.

1280px-NPU_-_Education_Building.JPG
 
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