Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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AndrewS

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Recently published essay by a retired USN Captain about the need for American Navy ships quantity rather than on placing too much emphasis on quality.

Bigger Fleets Win​

In naval warfare, a smaller fleet of superior quality ships is not a way to victory. The side with the most ships almost always wins.
By Captain Sam J. Tangredi, U.S. Navy (Retired)

Bigger Fleets Win | Proceedings - January 2023 Vol. 149/1/1,439
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I’ve heard a lot of people saying recently, ‘Quantity has a quality all its own.’ And I just want to be clear: No, it doesn’t. That’s one of the dumbest damn things I’ve ever heard.”1 With respect to the quoted speaker, not only does quantity have a quality all its own, but it also almost always proves decisive in naval warfare when professional competence is equal.

Using technological advantage as an indicator of quality, historical research on 28 naval wars (or wars with significant and protracted naval combat) indicates that 25 were won by the side with the larger fleet. When fleet size was roughly equal, superior strategy and substantially better trained and motivated crews carried the day.2 Only three could be said to have been won by a smaller fleet with superior technology.3

When professional naval competence and strategic acumen were equal, the larger fleet usually won, even when the smaller fleet possessed technological advantages at the start of the conflict. A primary reason is that technological advantages were inevitably short-lived.4 In a war between equally competent technological near peers—absent a series of amazing strokes of luck—the larger fleet always won.5 (See Table 1.)

Read the rest on the link.

Well, at least CNN is informing its readers that the US will likely lose a war against China.

The implication is that the US shouldn't get into a war with China in the first place.
 

bebops

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In war, many ships wont deplete all their missiles before it gets shot down.

Let say you have a battle between 4 frigates armed with hypersonic missiles vs 1 055 type. and cost is the same--4 frigate=1 055 type.

I will bet my money on 4 frigates going YOLO on 1 055 Type.

Quantity is sometimes all you needed.


I rather have 30 frigates armed with hypersonic vs 1 U.S carrier group. The frigates can be unmanned or manned too.
 

siegecrossbow

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KampfAlwin

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Had the pleasure of reading some Paul Huang twitter posts recently. If he is half right then the things are very dire for the ROC army. They make the Indian army look like the paragon of military prowess.
Reading up people’s idea of ROC’s military on other platforms, I get the impression that they seriously think the ROCA is the most advanced military in Asia similar to Japan/Korea and that the equipment and tactics they field are far superior to China‘s. Like they seriously think China still uses old Migs and T55s as their main force lol.

On Reddit, I also remember someone posted the problems with ROCA(with proof too) on a subreddit that claimed to ’seriously discuss military and geopolitical matters in an objective manner’ Because the discussions in there were basically shattering their fantasy of a superior ROC, the mods decided to lock it lol.
 

Bellum_Romanum

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Reading up people’s idea of ROC’s military on other platforms, I get the impression that they seriously think the ROCA is the most advanced military in Asia similar to Japan/Korea and that the equipment and tactics they field are far superior to China‘s. Like they seriously think China still uses old Migs and T55s as their main force lol.

On Reddit, I also remember someone posted the problems with ROCA(with proof too) on a subreddit that claimed to ’seriously discuss military and geopolitical matters in an objective manner’ Because the discussions in there were basically shattering their fantasy of a superior ROC, the mods decided to lock it lol.
That's to be expected from most westerners since they're the most heavily propagandized people on the planet bar none. They believe their own kool-aid and exceptionalism to the core.
 

siegecrossbow

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Reading up people’s idea of ROC’s military on other platforms, I get the impression that they seriously think the ROCA is the most advanced military in Asia similar to Japan/Korea and that the equipment and tactics they field are far superior to China‘s. Like they seriously think China still uses old Migs and T55s as their main force lol.

On Reddit, I also remember someone posted the problems with ROCA(with proof too) on a subreddit that claimed to ’seriously discuss military and geopolitical matters in an objective manner’ Because the discussions in there were basically shattering their fantasy of a superior ROC, the mods decided to lock it lol.

The incompetence of the recruits is pretty staggering. It is less “wearing saggy bullet proof vest” bad and more “only know how to shoot from prone position” and “never touched a stinger missile” or “never fired a mortar round” bad. For people who nitpick problems with PLA exercises… 99 percent of them aren’t serious enough to be an issue across the strait.

The conflict really boils down to mainland China and the US/Japan. ROC is a none factor.
 
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zhangjim

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Reading up people’s idea of ROC’s military on other platforms, I get the impression that they seriously think the ROCA is the most advanced military in Asia similar to Japan/Korea and that the equipment and tactics they field are far superior to China‘s. Like they seriously think China still uses old Migs and T55s as their main force lol.

On Reddit, I also remember someone posted the problems with ROCA(with proof too) on a subreddit that claimed to ’seriously discuss military and geopolitical matters in an objective manner’ Because the discussions in there were basically shattering their fantasy of a superior ROC, the mods decided to lock it lol.
Quora is full of such stupid discussions. It is correct not to mention other platforms as required by the rules, because when I saw an "Former Operations Specialist at United States Navy" claiming that the Chinese did not dare to implement blockade and intercept American ships at all, I thought I should close webpage.
I don't know why the West always fantasies that Taiwan can become "Israel of the Far East". After all, the western public believes that China is only a country with weaker military strength than Russia——or a super large North Korea/Vietnam.

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Remember this guy? His poor shooting skills and snail-like speed were a real torture to the audience.

Although I downloaded the PDF file of CSIS, I didn't have time to read it (busy preparing for the new year), so I chose these analysis version:
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The key to the success of the US military is that Taiwan's military is set to have high enough morale and training level. But obviously this premise is very fragile.
This thing has too many preconditions and is not a good simulation. The setting of the data is very unsatisfactory. Basically, it can be considered that the United States will win as long as it participates in the war,but this assumption seems meaningless.

Unfortunately, even the Ukrainians can't fight under the relentless artillery fire, the ROC army they have high hopes for is not T800 or Rambo.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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The incompetence of the recruits is pretty staggering. It is less “wearing saggy bullet proof vest” bad and more “only know how to shoot from prone position” and “never touched a stinger missile” or “never fired a mortar round” bad. For people who nitpick problems with PLA exercises… 99 percent of them aren’t serious enough to be an issue across the strait.

The conflict really boils down to mainland China and the US/Japan. ROC is a none factor.

Well, I mean... at least these guys are having fun...
1671632266036.png
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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Recently published essay by a retired USN Captain about the need for American Navy ships quantity rather than on placing too much emphasis on quality.

Bigger Fleets Win​

In naval warfare, a smaller fleet of superior quality ships is not a way to victory. The side with the most ships almost always wins.
By Captain Sam J. Tangredi, U.S. Navy (Retired)

Bigger Fleets Win | Proceedings - January 2023 Vol. 149/1/1,439
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I’ve heard a lot of people saying recently, ‘Quantity has a quality all its own.’ And I just want to be clear: No, it doesn’t. That’s one of the dumbest damn things I’ve ever heard.”1 With respect to the quoted speaker, not only does quantity have a quality all its own, but it also almost always proves decisive in naval warfare when professional competence is equal.

Using technological advantage as an indicator of quality, historical research on 28 naval wars (or wars with significant and protracted naval combat) indicates that 25 were won by the side with the larger fleet. When fleet size was roughly equal, superior strategy and substantially better trained and motivated crews carried the day.2 Only three could be said to have been won by a smaller fleet with superior technology.3

When professional naval competence and strategic acumen were equal, the larger fleet usually won, even when the smaller fleet possessed technological advantages at the start of the conflict. A primary reason is that technological advantages were inevitably short-lived.4 In a war between equally competent technological near peers—absent a series of amazing strokes of luck—the larger fleet always won.5 (See Table 1.)

Read the rest on the link.
In my opinion, the title (and content) should be edited to "Bigger Fleets With More VLS & Sonars Win" when the article is translated for fellow readers inside the PLAN.

My point? The PLAN should avoid get cocky and underestimating the opponent. This is despite the PLAN having:
#1 - A larger fleet than the USN (although by numbers and not by displacement tonnage),
#2 - Considerable home-front advantage compared to the USN, and
#3 - Having access to much more credible supports from other arms of the PLA.

Based on China's current military force disposition at the hands of the PLA CMC, having #2 and #3 are only sufficient as long as the PLAN warships stay within and around the Kyushu-Mindanao Line (KM Line), i.e. just marginally beyond the 1st Island Chain. In order to approach the 2nd Island Chain and go any further with credible strength and firepower projection would require #1 to be further buffed and strengthened.

I believe this is where massive numbers of optionally/minimally-manned surface units and unmanned underwater units are going to be a definitive contributor for the naval battle of the WestPac in the coming years. In fact, the US Navy is already planning for their Fifth Fleet stationed in the Arabic Ocean to be filled with 100+ USVs so that they could send more warships to the WestPac.
 
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Minm

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NK can do plenty as China’s ‘max’ attack dog.

If NK jumps in and is actively engaged in combat operations alongside China from the start, that guarantees SK stays out of the fight as its Korean War 2.0 otherwise. That’s infinitely preferable to actually having to fight Korean War 2.0 if SK was already engaged before NK.

NK can also happily threaten to hit targets and/or actually hit targets that are politically inconvenient for China to strike directly.
The US and Japan won't be able to touch the Chinese mainland in a significant way. Why would you give them the excuse to bomb North Korea again? The Koreans will stay out of it, but neither them nor the Russians will complain about Chinese planes flying over their territory on the way to Japan. They might shoot down the Japanese if they attempt the same of course
 
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