Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russia's surprisingly poor information warfare and cyber capabilities has shown me avenues where the PLA could do a much better job than Russia. Specifically, I've been thinking about how AI could be applied to warfare beyond the obvious logistical planning, wargaming, developing tactics in simulations, object recognition, etc. One idea struck me that might seem faintly ridiculous but stay with me for a second: deepfakes.

There are two kinds of cyberattacks, broadly speaking: the disruptive kind where you try to destroy enemy infrastructure (the first iconic example being Stuxnet). The other kind is more subtle and insidious, aimed at poisoning the well from which the enemy draws battlefield information. If the latter kind is done right, the enemy should not even know that an attack occurred until it's too late. For example, suppose a US ELINT aircraft is assisting RoC forces during a PLA attack on Taiwan - given the intelligence assistance the US has been feeding the Ukrainians, this is not at all far fetched. Now, PLA SIGINT could pick up this transmission and use AI-driven software to generate messages using the ELINT comms operators' faked voices (technology that exists
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).

You can imagine, of course, the fun that can be had with this. You can lead units into ambushes, divert reinforcements away during critical operations, mask the PLA's movements. You can sow complete chaos in the RoC's ranks if you compromise their communications and start injecting deepfaked audio messages, which is why it's important to have spies and saboteurs embedded in the RoC long before any hostilities start. If this is done extensively enough, the RoC will be rendered completely ineffective as a fighting force because no soldier can believe any information he's getting. The well is completely poisoned.

Once the PLA is in, it's not that hard to give the RoC...
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.

What you said requires breaking enemy encryption first, which is arguably much harder than the deepfake part...

Deepfake could have a much bigger role in PsyOp though, look at the amount of fabrication coming out of this war, imagine what more advanced DeepFake technology can do in the future... I don't want to live in the matrix man
 

solarz

Brigadier
Russia's surprisingly poor information warfare and cyber capabilities has shown me avenues where the PLA could do a much better job than Russia. Specifically, I've been thinking about how AI could be applied to warfare beyond the obvious logistical planning, wargaming, developing tactics in simulations, object recognition, etc. One idea struck me that might seem faintly ridiculous but stay with me for a second: deepfakes.

There are two kinds of cyberattacks, broadly speaking: the disruptive kind where you try to destroy enemy infrastructure (the first iconic example being Stuxnet). The other kind is more subtle and insidious, aimed at poisoning the well from which the enemy draws battlefield information. If the latter kind is done right, the enemy should not even know that an attack occurred until it's too late. For example, suppose a US ELINT aircraft is assisting RoC forces during a PLA attack on Taiwan - given the intelligence assistance the US has been feeding the Ukrainians, this is not at all far fetched. Now, PLA SIGINT could pick up this transmission and use AI-driven software to generate messages using the ELINT comms operators' faked voices (technology that exists
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
).

You can imagine, of course, the fun that can be had with this. You can lead units into ambushes, divert reinforcements away during critical operations, mask the PLA's movements. You can sow complete chaos in the RoC's ranks if you compromise their communications and start injecting deepfaked audio messages, which is why it's important to have spies and saboteurs embedded in the RoC long before any hostilities start. If this is done extensively enough, the RoC will be rendered completely ineffective as a fighting force because no soldier can believe any information he's getting. The well is completely poisoned.

Once the PLA is in, it's not that hard to give the RoC...
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

It's not the faking that's the problem, it's the encryption on the communications.

One possibility is using quantum computing to break existing encryptions, but then that's going a bit into the realm of speculation.

Of course, one also has to consider the converse possibility: the US could use quantum computing to break Chinese encryption and gain a massive intel advantage.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
What you said requires breaking enemy encryption first, which is arguably much harder than the deepfake part...

Deepfake could have a much bigger role in PsyOp though, look at the amount of fabrication coming out of this war, imagine what more advanced DeepFake technology can do in the future... I don't want to live in the matrix man
It's not the faking that's the problem, it's the encryption on the communications.

One possibility is using quantum computing to break existing encryptions, but then that's going a bit into the realm of speculation.
That's where PRC spies embedded in the RoC would be the most helpful. They're much better used feeding encryption codes and the like to the PLA than actually running overt sabotage and possibly exposing themselves. Given how deeply compromised the RoC forces are, I imagine there is already quite a large number of such spies in place.

Spies in the US military would be very helpful as well, although that would be a far tougher lift.
Of course, one also has to consider the converse possibility: the US could use quantum computing to break Chinese encryption and gain a massive intel advantage.
There are encryption methods provably immune to attack by a quantum computer (at least attacks using Shor's algorithm which is the basis for quantum cryptanalysis). They're just not used because they're more difficult than current methods and there's no viable quantum computer yet.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
First of all, welcome back!
Thank you. Good to be back.
Second, I just want to point out that the Antonov operation wasn't ill-fated, it was actually very successful. The VDV held on to the airport until reinforcements arrived. They were not driven into the forest as Ukrainian propaganda claimed.
Perhaps we have different thresholds. While the VDV spearhead might not have been wiped out or slaughtered like cattle as the Ukrainian government claimed, I would be amazed if they did not suffer pretty significant losses in that operation.

These were some of Russia’s best troops, and they were essentially sent in to die as slowly as possible. While I understand the operational and strategic needs for that, let’s just say it’s not an op I would remotely want to be on and feel those men deserved better. But

Now, while I absolutely believe Putin secured Chinese economic assistance before going into Ukraine, I don't think China could have gotten any assurances from Putin there won't be nukes flying. That would have undermined the whole deterrence strategy.

Instead, what I think happened is that Putin and Xi got together and agreed that the US is not going to risk nuclear conflict with Russia over Ukraine. Incidentally, this is another point on the importance of correctly evaluating your opponents.

As for Russian operational mishaps, I think they went in with kiddie gloves at first simply because they could afford to. The price they paid was a few hundred lives in Russian special forces, but the potential payback could have been thousands of civilian lives saved. I think Putin saw it as something worth risking, precisely because Russia could always escalate if the gambit failed, as we are now seeing.

Still, those first few days of relative leniency allowed thousands of civilians, including foreign nationals, to escape the war zones, so I think it was still worth it.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Russia's surprisingly poor information warfare and cyber capabilities has shown me avenues where the PLA could do a much better job than Russia. Specifically, I've been thinking about how AI could be applied to warfare beyond the obvious logistical planning, wargaming, developing tactics in simulations, object recognition, etc. One idea struck me that might seem faintly ridiculous but stay with me for a second: deepfakes.

There are two kinds of cyberattacks, broadly speaking: the disruptive kind where you try to destroy enemy infrastructure (the first iconic example being Stuxnet). The other kind is more subtle and insidious, aimed at poisoning the well from which the enemy draws battlefield information. If the latter kind is done right, the enemy should not even know that an attack occurred until it's too late. For example, suppose a US ELINT aircraft is assisting RoC forces during a PLA attack on Taiwan - given the intelligence assistance the US has been feeding the Ukrainians, this is not at all far fetched. Now, PLA SIGINT could pick up this transmission and use AI-driven software to generate messages using the ELINT comms operators' faked voices (technology that exists
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
).

You can imagine, of course, the fun that can be had with this. You can lead units into ambushes, divert reinforcements away during critical operations, mask the PLA's movements. You can sow complete chaos in the RoC's ranks if you compromise their communications and start injecting deepfaked audio messages, which is why it's important to have spies and saboteurs embedded in the RoC long before any hostilities start. If this is done extensively enough, the RoC will be rendered completely ineffective as a fighting force because no soldier can believe any information he's getting. The well is completely poisoned.

Once the PLA is in, it's not that hard to give the RoC...
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

1646331039007.png

One way to reduce casualties in sieges.
 

ecaedus

New Member
Registered Member
in my mind there's only so much the PLA can do when it comes to minimizing civilian casualties. It all depends on how willing the taiwanese are to fight the PLA down to the last man. obviously PLA isn't incentivized to raze entire cities to the ground with occupants still inside who are not willing to fight. but i'm sure they have no problem shooting back at those who take up arms, civilians or not.

PLA's actions towards civilians are mainly going to be reactive rather than proactive. meaning all they can do is send out leaflets before entering the city, telling the civies not to take up arms against them. launch massive media and psych warfare hoping to convince as many as possible to surrender.

when it comes to foreign nationals, i would assume PLA would block out an area just for them to get airlifted or shipped out of tw after they've taken complete control of the island.

the real problem would be when die hard rebels/KMT soldiers alike, mingle into residential buildings and hole up in there to target PLA convoy or personnel with ATGM/MANPADS/RPG, while keeping the civies inside that same building at all times as human meat shields. the PLA would either need to shell the buildings and take out rebels and civies all together (huge backlash for future occupation), or conduct CQC and clear the buildings one at a time while suffering losses and getting halted to a grind. both of which are terrible options when your objective is to invade and capture the island as quickly as possible.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
the real problem would be when die hard rebels/KMT soldiers alike, mingle into residential buildings and hole up in there to target PLA convoy or personnel with ATGM/MANPADS/RPG, while keeping the civies inside that same building at all times as human meat shields. the PLA would either need to shell the buildings and take out rebels and civies all together (huge backlash for future occupation), or conduct CQC and clear the buildings one at a time while suffering losses and getting halted to a grind. both of which are terrible options when your objective is to invade and capture the island as quickly as possible.
Is there any application for micro drones here?

Put a grenade/pistol on them, and with AI, or AI-assissted control, let them fly to a building to take out enemy combatants.

Ideally they should be small enough that they could form micro swarms with cooperative functions in order to quickly clear a building with minimal side casualties
 

ecaedus

New Member
Registered Member
Is there any application for micro drones here?

Put a grenade/pistol on them, and with AI, or AI-assissted control, let them fly to a building to take out enemy combatants.

Ideally they should be small enough that they could form micro swarms with cooperative functions in order to quickly clear a building with minimal side casualties
yeah i was thinking of having smart loitering munitions coordinating with ISR drones to take out maybe just one apartment unit of a building where the rebels are.

Micro suicide/grenade drones would be even better, but i think i've only seen one example of it in an expo show, propeller driven with unknown endurance. not sure if the current battery tech can support such a small drone.
 
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