Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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lcloo

Captain
Civilians rose up, refused to allow KMT to destroy their infrastructure, and much of the demoralized KMT ran or collapsed, which avoided damage. That is very different than a situation involving entrenched extremists fighting all out with modernized Imperial Japan style tactics. Mariupol should be watched carefully.
There is one thing that I found and surprise me in 2019. On the way to Taipei, passing the outskirt of the city, from the window of our tour bus I spotted several five star red flags outside a small shop by the road.

There is a difference between brain washed young generations and extremist group which are very small in number. And there is an older generation of Taiwanese that still believe in unification with Mainland China. This means that many silent groups in Taiwan will change side just as in Beiping (now Beijing). Though I would expect a more realistic event of between Beijing and Shanghai scanerio in 1949 civil war.
 
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Philister

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is one thing that I found and surprise me in 2019. On the way to Taipei, passing the outskirt of the city, from the window of our tour bus I spotted several five star red flags outside a small shop by the road.

There is a difference between brain washed young generations and extremist group which are very small in number. And there is an older generation of Taiwanese that still believe in unification with Mainland China. This means that many silent groups in Taiwan will change side just as in Beiping (now Beijing). Though I would expect a more realistic event of between Beijing and Shanghai scanerio in 1949.
If they would had time to change their side, big L for us
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Ok, so here are some musings of mine from observing the Russian-Ukraine war so far. It would have been better in the Ukraine thread, but since they didn’t want any Taiwan talk there, I guess this is the only place to put it.

One of the fundamental basics to draw any lessons from Ukraine is to first understand the core underlying strategic thinking and thus, Russia’s choices, and how that might be different to China’s in a Taiwan scenario.

I have taken a back to basis approach of trying to reconstruct Putin’s strategy and choices and think I might have found the carefully hidden golden thread that links and explains a lot of the more puzzling aspects and developments in this war.

So, let’s start with what can be assumed with the highest order of likelihood and move down and see how things fall into place.

So, at the macro strategic level, it is simply inconceivable to me that Putin would have gone ahead with this invasion without having gained full Chinese support beforehand. It may not have been an explicit, I’m gunna invade on 24FEB2022, but I think detailed discussions and commitments would have been had and made that included the roles and obligations both parties had to each other in the even Putin decided to pull the trigger.

The true and full extent of that support (political, economic, military?) is going to be of great debate, while I will get into in more detail later, but to save time and stay focused, let’s just abbreviate that to support in general and move on.

However, it is just as inconceivable that any support China has agreed to give Russia would be unconditional. At a minimum China would have needed cast iron assurances that this won’t rapidly spiral into full global nuclear MAD. And I think this is the golden thread I mentioned earlier.

To obtain Chinese support, Putin would have had to draw a line beyond which he cannot cross without risking loosing Chinese support. There is precedent with that with North Korea where China allowed and then joined UN sanctions when Kim didn’t play nice.

I say risking because I am realistic and see there being a potentially great distance between what Putin and Xi might have agreed upon, and what both could ultimately live with in the end.

I think the Chinese red lines would have been, officially, no direct combat engagement with NATO troops. And no lobbing of tactical nukes if you get spanked by NATO conventionally as what they can live with.

On the flip side, I see the maximum official military/political support China being willing to provide if needed to suddenly and massively ramp up military tensions with Taiwan if NATO crosses specific pre-agreed escalation thresholds (timing wise, just look who had a delegation on the books to land in Taiwan less than a week after the invasion began, which would have provided the perfect pretext for a massive Chinese ‘overreaction’ had that ). For example, if NATO sent troops into Ukraine to seize ground and stare down the Russians like the Russians famously did Kosovo style.

The aim is to undermine NATO resolve and ability to directly engage in head on combat with the Russians by yanking America’s full attention to the Pacific, thereby massively weakening NATO’s combat capabilities. Unofficially I see China prepared to actually kick off Armed Reunification (AU) if it looks like America is treating that as a bluff and not redeploying sufficient forces to be able to have any realistic chance of actually contesting AU. With Putin maybe thinking he can blackmail China into lending him its Air Force if he threatens to go nuclear otherwise. I mean, if J16s were repainted in Russian colours, would anyone even be able to tell?

But all of that is really dicey and carries massive risks and costs and thus should be avoided if at all possible.

And that is the golden thread - Putin was terrified that NATO would send in troops to oppose him in Ukraine and desperate to head that off.

What tipped me off was what I think the only minor slip up that Putin made - his overreaction to Liz Truss.

There has been much public (exaggerated I think) scratching of heads on what she said that might have triggered Putin to put his nuclear forces on high alert, but I think it’s what she said a day earlier when she publicly supported the ideas of British volunteers going to fight in Ukraine. At the same time there was growing talk about former Soviet NATO countries doing a fighter jet whip around for Ukraine.

Now Putin is a man who knows his history, so he would have remembered that the PLA never officially went into Korea. It was the PVA who went in, so I think all these off the cuff hairbrained ideas actually accidentally got uncomfortably close to a nightmare scenario for Putin - of a NATO ‘volunteer’ army going into Ukraine and fighting the Russians to a standstill conventionally. So he prematurely waved his big nuclear stick and bluffed.

That, incidentally also explains the very odd way this war built up had started. Putin always knew he had to bluff with his nuclear card, so he used the build up to discredit western analysts most likely to call his bluff and building up the ideological crusaders who are more likely to think he isn’t bluffing.

So, going back and re-examine key aspects with this golden thread and suddenly things that didn’t make much sense start to.

Why did Russia hold the bulk of its forces back from actual combat? To not overextend and risk enticing NATO intervention.

Why the ill fated airborne assault on Antonov airport on day 1? So NATO couldn’t just fly in a token QRF force into Kyiv like the Russians themselves did during the Kosovo war to stalemate the war there and then.

Why the kiddy gloves air and missile strikes at the expense of Russian soldiers’ lives? To minimise collateral damage and calls for NATO involvement.

Why the Leeroy Jenkins mad dash of the Z force? To take territory and reach key choke points to head off and limit any NATO push before they ran into Russian ground forces.

Why isn’t power and communications systematically cut off from zero hour? Well two reasons, one is to maximise risks of NATO covert ops exposure if every civilian with a cellphone (which is everyone and their dog these days) is basically live streaming everything they see in real time, thus making western leaders much more hesitant to allow those ops.

And two is to make sure everyone keeps their cellphones with them throughout the war. Remember those Russia surrender psychops text messages everyone in Ukraine was getting on day one? What are the odds that’s not just bad propaganda? The Russians already stole NSA cyber spying toolkits and there are private companies offering off the shelf tech to compromise phones that merely receive an infected message. I would not be surprised at all if the Russians are already doing the hard work of post war counter insurgency now by infecting phones and having people finger themselves and their close contacts through their movements logs during the war to be picked up and disappeared later.

Make no mistake, I think the Russians also blundered and miscalculated in a lot of places. But not as much as western punts are claiming.

I think while there was indeed the hope that this would be Crimea 2.0 where the Russian army rolls in with minimal resistance, it was never counted upon.

There was massive operational level incompetence and wholly inadequate logistical support despite the prolonged build up; and fundamental deficiencies in Russia’s military modernisation. But a lot of the losses and damage was a result of risks and choices deliberately made rather than because the Russians didn’t know how to shape the fight to their own advantage. Just look at how little Twitter footages there is from the major eastern front engagements. That’s where the lion share of the fighting and dying is happening, and the Russians are doing very very well there based on what little info we have from there.

So now that we have covered Ukraine, how does that apply to Taiwan? Well I think while there will also be a significant time pressure factor in any PLA operation to take Taiwan. It won’t be to anything like the same degree or extent as the Russians for two simple reasons - the PLA is not going to be conventionally overmatched by the Americans in a Taiwan scenario; and I don’t think the PLA is going to assume it can bluff the US out of direct military intervention. That means that while the PLA would be hoping to take Taiwan before America can respond, its entire strategy doesn’t depend on it. Thus the PLA will push to move fast, but not unsustainably so as the Russians are doing in central and western Ukraine.

I think the biggest lessons China should take to heart to not repeat the mistakes of the Russians would be to not underestimate the willingness of political leaders to whip up its citizens into doing essentially meaningless suicidal lemming rush attacks for the primary purpose of generating massive civilian casualties for Twitter posts to try to tug to western heartstrings to increase the chances of direct military intervention.

It would also need to take city fighting as a given and invest heavily in weapons and technology that would increase the urban combat survivability of its ground forces and allow them to root out determined, dug in defenders with minimal collateral damage.

To that end, power and civilian communications should be a day 1 priority target to bring down and keep down throughout the course of any conflict.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Also an interesting analysis by RUSI!
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This analysis seems ridden with the usual problems I have had with previous US analyst opinions on performance of the RuAF in this conflict. In my opinion this is what the Russians did to handle Ukraine's air defenses. They used cruise missile strikes to hit the S-300 missile batteries. This deleted Ukrainian high altitude defense. Then they went with a combined strike force of Su-34 and Su-25. The Su-25 did low altitude, under the radar, attacks on their short and medium range defenses. The Su-34 did high altitude reconnaissance and bombardment of air defense targets in the open using missiles like Kh-31. They then used attack helicopters to handle the MANPADS and leftover air defenses not covered in the first two waves. It is quite easy to say that you can handle the MANPADS with high altitude aircraft. But for that you need to spot them. And you aren't going to use a smart bomb to hit a single guy with a MANPADS. That is not economy of force.

The low flying attack helicopters present a visible target to Ukrainians with MANPADS and thus they flush them out. Once the MANPADS were mostly gone they started using the Su-34 with low level attacks. Which is why more recently you see videos of Su-34. You won't be filming high flying Su-34 with your smartphone.

Sure the Russians have less smart bombs and guided weapons in stock than the US. They only recently started producing these in numbers. But they should have loads of old Soviet stock TV guided missiles similar to the Maverick they could have used. I have also heard reports they have bought a decent amount of Kh-38 missiles a couple years back which they could have used against large ground vehicles. Should still have Soviet stocks of Kh-25 including upgraded anti-radar/laser/TV guided versions of it.

"demilitarization", means the eradication of the entire Ukrainian military.
It means they will remove/destroy all their heavy weapons and disable their military's ability to conduct operations. This might be capture them after they surrender or elimination with use of force in case they resist.
 
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MortyandRick

Senior Member
Registered Member
Ok, so here are some musings of mine from observing the Russian-Ukraine war so far. It would have been better in the Ukraine thread, but since they didn’t want any Taiwan talk there, I guess this is the only place to put it.

otherwise. I mean, if J16s were repainted in Russian colours, would anyone even be able to tell?

But all of that is really dicey and carries massive risks and costs and thus should be avoided if at all possible.

And that is the golden thread - Putin was terrified that NATO would send in troops to oppose him in Ukraine and desperate to head that off.

What tipped me off was what I think the only minor slip up that Putin made - his overreaction to Liz Truss.

There has been much public (exaggerated I think) scratching of heads on what she said that might have triggered Putin to put his nuclear forces on high alert, but I think it’s what she said a day earlier when she publicly supported the ideas of British volunteers going to fight in Ukraine. At the same time there was growing talk about former Soviet NATO countries doing a fighter jet whip around for Ukraine.

Now Putin is a man who knows his history, so he would have remembered that the PLA never officially went into Korea. It was the PVA who went in, so I think all these off the cuff hairbrained ideas actually accidentally got uncomfortably close to a nightmare scenario for Putin - of a NATO ‘volunteer’ army going into Ukraine and fighting the Russians to a standstill conventionally. So he prematurely waved his big nuclear stick and bluffed.

That, incidentally also explains the very odd way this war built up had started. Putin always knew he had to bluff with his nuclear card, so he used the build up to discredit western analysts most likely to call his bluff and building up the ideological crusaders who are more likely to think he isn’t bluffing.

So, going back and re-examine key aspects with this golden thread and suddenly things that didn’t make much sense start to.

Why did Russia hold the bulk of its forces back from actual combat? To not overextend and risk enticing NATO intervention.

Why the ill fated airborne assault on Antonov airport on day 1? So NATO couldn’t just fly in a token QRF force into Kyiv like the Russians themselves did during the Kosovo war to stalemate the war there and then.

Why the kiddy gloves air and missile strikes at the expense of Russian soldiers’ lives? To minimise collateral damage and calls for NATO involvement.

Why the Leeroy Jenkins mad dash of the Z force? To take territory and reach key choke points to head off and limit any NATO push before they ran into Russian ground forces.

Why isn’t power and communications systematically cut off from zero hour? Well two reasons, one is to maximise risks of NATO covert ops exposure if every civilian with a cellphone (which is everyone and their dog these days) is basically live streaming everything they see in real time, thus making western leaders much more hesitant to allow those ops.

And two is to make sure everyone keeps their cellphones with them throughout the war. Remember those Russia surrender psychops text messages everyone in Ukraine was getting on day one? What are the odds that’s not just bad propaganda? The Russians already stole NSA cyber spying toolkits and there are private companies offering off the shelf tech to compromise phones that merely receive an infected message. I would not be surprised at all if the Russians are already doing the hard work of post war counter insurgency now by infecting phones and having people finger themselves and their close contacts through their movements logs during the war to be picked up and disappeared later.

Make no mistake, I think the Russians also blundered and miscalculated in a lot of places. But not as much as western punts are claiming.

I think while there was indeed the hope that this would be Crimea 2.0 where the Russian army rolls in with minimal resistance, it was never counted upon.

There was massive operational level incompetence and wholly inadequate logistical support despite the prolonged build up; and fundamental deficiencies in Russia’s military modernisation. But a lot of the losses and damage was a result of risks and choices deliberately made rather than because the Russians didn’t know how to shape the fight to their own advantage. Just look at how little Twitter footages there is from the major eastern front engagements. That’s where the lion share of the fighting and dying is happening, and the Russians are doing very very well there based on what little info we have from there.
Great analysis! Best I've read so far.



I really don't believe those who say Putin jumped into this without thinking. Yes the Russian army made mistakes, as any army will in a massive operation but I also don't buy the western analysis that the Russian army was completely unprepared. Putin has been in power 2 decades. I have always been surprised at how forward thinking and calculating he is. This was a long time in the making. But that's my 2 cents.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Civilians rose up, refused to allow KMT to destroy their infrastructure, and much of the demoralized KMT ran or collapsed, which avoided damage. That is very different than a situation involving entrenched extremists fighting all out with modernized Imperial Japan style tactics. Mariupol should be watched carefully.

Are you suggesting there are entrenched extremists fighting with samurai tactics in Taiwan? :D
 

solarz

Brigadier
Ok, so here are some musings of mine from observing the Russian-Ukraine war so far. It would have been better in the Ukraine thread, but since they didn’t want any Taiwan talk there, I guess this is the only place to put it.

(Rest truncated due to char limit)

First of all, welcome back!

Second, I just want to point out that the Antonov operation wasn't ill-fated, it was actually very successful. The VDV held on to the airport until reinforcements arrived. They were not driven into the forest as Ukrainian propaganda claimed.

Now, while I absolutely believe Putin secured Chinese economic assistance before going into Ukraine, I don't think China could have gotten any assurances from Putin there won't be nukes flying. That would have undermined the whole deterrence strategy.

Instead, what I think happened is that Putin and Xi got together and agreed that the US is not going to risk nuclear conflict with Russia over Ukraine. Incidentally, this is another point on the importance of correctly evaluating your opponents.

As for Russian operational mishaps, I think they went in with kiddie gloves at first simply because they could afford to. The price they paid was a few hundred lives in Russian special forces, but the potential payback could have been thousands of civilian lives saved. I think Putin saw it as something worth risking, precisely because Russia could always escalate if the gambit failed, as we are now seeing.

Still, those first few days of relative leniency allowed thousands of civilians, including foreign nationals, to escape the war zones, so I think it was still worth it.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Russia's surprisingly poor information warfare and cyber capabilities has shown me avenues where the PLA could do a much better job than Russia. Specifically, I've been thinking about how AI could be applied to warfare beyond the obvious logistical planning, wargaming, developing tactics in simulations, object recognition, etc. One idea struck me that might seem faintly ridiculous but stay with me for a second: deepfakes.

There are two kinds of cyberattacks, broadly speaking: the disruptive kind where you try to destroy enemy infrastructure (the first iconic example being Stuxnet). The other kind is more subtle and insidious, aimed at poisoning the well from which the enemy draws battlefield information. If the latter kind is done right, the enemy should not even know that an attack occurred until it's too late. For example, suppose a US ELINT aircraft is assisting RoC forces during a PLA attack on Taiwan - given the intelligence assistance the US has been feeding the Ukrainians, this is not at all far fetched. Now, PLA SIGINT could pick up this transmission and use AI-driven software to generate messages using the ELINT comms operators' faked voices (technology that exists
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).

You can imagine, of course, the fun that can be had with this. You can lead units into ambushes, divert reinforcements away during critical operations, mask the PLA's movements. You can sow complete chaos in the RoC's ranks if you compromise their communications and start injecting deepfaked audio messages, which is why it's important to have spies and saboteurs embedded in the RoC long before any hostilities start. If this is done extensively enough, the RoC will be rendered completely ineffective as a fighting force because no soldier can believe any information he's getting. The well is completely poisoned.

Once the PLA is in, it's not that hard to give the RoC...
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.
 

FriedButter

Colonel
Registered Member
In Taiwan, of course it is different due to it being an island. Opening up an escape air corridor and a sea route for civilians, and even for disarmed military will help to shorten the war and cut down civilian and military casualties. The port of departure may be under control of PLA or under a joint control like Kabul airport last year.
Unlikely that air or sea corridor will be opened. If there is then it will be a 1 way trip to the mainland because I don’t see the PLA conducting an sea corridor to other places where spies or agents could try to infiltrate it. The air corridor is a big fat no no. Last thing anyone needs is for an accident to happen resulting in a civilian airliner being shot down.
 
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