Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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AndrewS

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I don't think your characterisation of the US course of action is correct. For one, the US would definitely intervene if the war started tomorrow. Intervention is guaranteed unless Taiwan does something extremely stupid, like declaring independence. Chinese conduct during the reunification war will not affect whether the US intervenes or not; it is going to intervene.

Also, the status of Taiwan would not (imo) affect whether or not the US continues the war. The US doesn't care about Taiwan as such, beyond what Taiwan means to the larger military goal of the US: containing China, and ensuring US supremacy in the Western Pacific. China could bomb Taiwan so much that every single Taiwanese person died and the US would still try and take Taiwan if it was militarily able to. They would want to control it even if it was a nuclear wasteland, because it's use to them is to militarily contain China. The US's wargoals are not to liberate Taiwan or keep Taiwan free, so seeing an imminent collapse of Taiwanese society that can only be resolved by peace would not deter them. The US's goals are to, as much as possible, clip China's wings, contain China geographically, and maintain military control of the western Pacific. None of those goals are achieved by letting the PRC take and keep control of Taiwan, and the fact that that would be the only realistic way to solve the humanitarian crisis would be irrelevant.

It still applies even if the US military is involved from Day 1.

Hitting Taiwan harder means that Taiwan collapses faster. That makes it critical for the US to rush in more cargo ships and cargo aircraft.

But Taiwan is only 200km from the Chinese mainland whereas the nearest usable US bases are in distant Japan or Guam. The US is going to have to deploy ships and aircraft essentially off the Chinese coastline to protect cargo shipments to Taiwan. But the Chinese Air Force, Navy and Rocket Force can still launch a huge number of sorties and missiles next to the Chinese coastline.

---

And let's say that China and Taiwan do come to a Hong Kong type settlement, but the US continues the war.

We will see the leader of Taiwan (possibly current President Tsai Ing Wen) stand up and address all the countries of the world at the United Nations. She'll say Taiwan accepts a Hong Kong arrangement (which the world has already accepted for Hong Kong) and that Taiwan wants the US to stop the war, as it will only cause more suffering and death to the people of Taiwan for absolutely no purpose.

And she will say this because it's the best interests of Taiwan.

How the heck is the US supposed to continue the war if this happens?
 
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tphuang

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Now I think about it, gas stations probably will not work without electricity either (no working pumps), unless they all have diesel generators
I think @Patchwork_Chimera covered this topic quite well. You don't need to take out most of the gas stations. Just the ones close to bases. Anything further, vehicles themselves will run out of gas.

I think they should make a point to not damage all the infrastructure if blockade is the way to go.

Taking out refineries, power generation, internet and communication tower alone would make it very hard for roc army to operate. They will pretty much only be able to operate during day time. Their lines of communication will revert to something akin to WW1 or WW2 telegram and be really easy to intercept. Drones and helicopters would be able to pick out any movement pretty easily. Pla would even be able to land infiltration units at night or use local spies that can do even greater damage to selected infrastructure. After 2 weeks of constant overhead attacks, there just won't be a lot of hope left for the defending force.
 

vincent

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Moderator - World Affairs
I think @Patchwork_Chimera covered this topic quite well. You don't need to take out most of the gas stations. Just the ones close to bases. Anything further, vehicles themselves will run out of gas.

I think they should make a point to not damage all the infrastructure if blockade is the way to go.

Taking out refineries, power generation, internet and communication tower alone would make it very hard for roc army to operate. They will pretty much only be able to operate during day time. Their lines of communication will revert to something akin to WW1 or WW2 telegram and be really easy to intercept. Drones and helicopters would be able to pick out any movement pretty easily. Pla would even be able to land infiltration units at night or use local spies that can do even greater damage to selected infrastructure. After 2 weeks of constant overhead attacks, there just won't be a lot of hope left for the defending force.
If possible, airdrop a few armed UGV with UAV overwatch to draw out ROC units
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
I think @Patchwork_Chimera covered this topic quite well. You don't need to take out most of the gas stations. Just the ones close to bases. Anything further, vehicles themselves will run out of gas.

I think they should make a point to not damage all the infrastructure if blockade is the way to go.

Taking out refineries, power generation, internet and communication tower alone would make it very hard for roc army to operate. They will pretty much only be able to operate during day time. Their lines of communication will revert to something akin to WW1 or WW2 telegram and be really easy to intercept. Drones and helicopters would be able to pick out any movement pretty easily. Pla would even be able to land infiltration units at night or use local spies that can do even greater damage to selected infrastructure. After 2 weeks of constant overhead attacks, there just won't be a lot of hope left for the defending force.

Definitely sabotage and infiltration would be key to this strategy.

I believe we have discussed before the weak state of the power transmission infrastructure in Taiwan. Basically there are just a few High Voltage lines carrying power in a North-South fashion. If any of these suffer failure, the others can be overloaded and cause a cascading failure (not unlike the Northeastern Blackout in Canada/US roughly 15 years ago). Similar smaller scale blackout events of this nature happen on a semi-regular basis on the island.

Not helping this is the lack of new power generation including the cancellation of Lungmen Nuclear power plant which would have been located on the North side of the island (where Taipei and the accompanying C4i infrastructure is) which would help alleviate the more southern location of Taipower's largest plants (>1000MW).

This weakness allows the PLA to have a spectrum of attack vectors at their disposal from non-kinetic (cyberattacks) to low-kinetic (sabotage), to high-kinetic (full attacks).

As proposed in the other scenarios, without reliable power, then ancillary services such as fuel distribution would become an issue, then food follows.

DPP is smartly investing more money into military for their next budget and not into trying to build Lungmen power plant.
 

tphuang

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Ultimately, I think the vast vast majority of people on this forum want this to be solved peacefully. Based on what we have seen, it is likely that current us political class will try to push china further on this Taiwan issue. So in the near term, the best case scenario is for kmt to get back in power. I think there wont be any major issues as long as kmt is in power. I think the Russians probably wouldn't have attacked Ukraine if the Ukrainian elected a pro Russia president. While China's response to the pelosi visit was strong, it certainly did not cross any line. So with right engagement and pressure, maybe we can get the more favorable scenario of kmt winning the next election. Now, in the event that dpp wins again, I think china will need to be very careful and examine closely what the red lines are. There will undoubtedly be additional provocations like the recent pelosi visit. But if you are china, then you really don't want to get in any conflict until you achieve certain economic and technological goals.

What do I mean by that? Well, there is the very obvious current weakness in chip sector. Based on the recent optimistic rumors out of china, we think they can achieve fully domestic 7 nm line by end of next year. Which would be an extremely strong step toward independence in this very important sector. Having full supply chain all the way up to 7 nm process would allow them to supply everything from low end of the market to industrial chips to chips for computers and lower end smartphones. The only thing it doesn't cover is highest end smartphone chips. China has far and away the most number of fabs under construction and some of them are going to be advanced. By 2025, China will likely be able to capture most of domestic demand. The Chinese supply chain will also become legitimate players in the international market who are looking for competition to TSMC, Samsung, ASML, Lam and AMAT. This will have large geopoltical implications. And if they can have EUV in production after that, they will have completely succeeded in taking over this industry. It seems to me there is probably a 6 to 7 year process in this.

As discussed in other threads, they have already taken over the NEV industry. Based on all that i have seen in the past 3 months, Chinese battery makers have cornered the market in terms of foreign automaker production. Domestic automakers like BYD are likely to become even larger players in export market. Over time, I will also expect that they take over in areas like autonomous driving, Lidar, electric motor, power chips and MCUs. After all, BYD is already doing that with Toyota cars. It would be hard for foreign automakers without using the cheaper Chinese suppliers. I think they are probably 3 years away from total control of the market.

In renewables, they already lead the world in hydro and solar technology. Their onshore and offshore wind turbine technology will continue to get more competitive over time and likely to reach much higher market share in international market. They are even likely to become the dominant player in nuclear reactors with the Hualong-1 and other projects in the pipeline. Even considering security concerns from certain Western countries, China will likely make significant progress in the likely Nuclear renaissance we are going to have. It would be hard for China not to be dominant when they are the only one building nuclear plants. Aside from that, China's advantages in battery technology will also likely transfer to energy storage. Even in hydrogen fuel cell, they are making significant process and likely to be a leading player going forward. The next 5 years are likely when China will reach even greater control in the 0-carbon future. As long as Western countries continue to debate fossil fuels vs clean energy usage, they will not be able to put in the same policies needed.

Aside from this, China is making great progress in Bio tech, AI, Quantum computing, Robotics and all the supply chains. With the Europeans killing their own industries with these high energy prices, it's just a matter of time before more factories shut down and they rely on Chinese imports for high energy reliant fields. The likely outcome is that China will move up the value chain and offshore the lower cost industries to countries that are part of the BRI. I feel like this will be a transfer of wealth from Western economies to developing world.

The other part of this is the effect of BRI. As I discussed here China's infrastructure projects and strategic implications, BRI is a great project with the end goal of having most of the world's production and trading go through China. US political types keep freaking out about deep sea ports that China is taking over. When in reality, the goal is economical and industrial. It is about making the transportation from rest of the world to China as efficient and reliable as possible. All the infrastructure projects are aimed to increase connectivity to China. This allows China to be an integral supplier of trade between any two parties. We are still a few years away from the completion of many BRI projects. For example, having a completely connected rail/pipeline network in Central Asia will be huge to the region and to China. Completing all the deep sea ports in Africa and South America would allow much easier trading between China and these countries. Completing rail from China to Singapore would allow China to be the middle of all commerce in Asia. All commerce would either pass through sea lanes that China control or through railways that China built. And as part of BRI and increased commerce, CNH will slowly become a more important world currency. It will also make CIPS, UnionPay and Chinese banks a larger part of the international financial system. The Russia/Ukraine conflict has certainly sped up this portion. Eventually, any party that wants to evade Western sanctions will be able to get everything they need by using CNH, CIPS, UnionPay and interact with Chinese banks. That to me seems to be a reasonable end goal here. This is something that will likely take many years to play out.

As you can see, it is really not in China's interest to get in a large conflict when it can achieve most of its objectives slowly through industrialization, trading and infrastructure projects. Assuming we get through the end of this decade peacefully, China will likely have much increased leverage over Taiwan and other Asian countries. Taiwan's position will be a lot weaker if TSMC loses large portion of its market share to Chinese fabs.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Ultimately, I think the vast vast majority of people on this forum want this to be solved peacefully. Based on what we have seen, it is likely that current us political class will try to push china further on this Taiwan issue. So in the near term, the best case scenario is for kmt to get back in power. I think there wont be any major issues as long as kmt is in power. I think the Russians probably wouldn't have attacked Ukraine if the Ukrainian elected a pro Russia president. While China's response to the pelosi visit was strong, it certainly did not cross any line. So with right engagement and pressure, maybe we can get the more favorable scenario of kmt winning the next election. Now, in the event that dpp wins again, I think china will need to be very careful and examine closely what the red lines are. There will undoubtedly be additional provocations like the recent pelosi visit. But if you are china, then you really don't want to get in any conflict until you achieve certain economic and technological goals.

What do I mean by that? Well, there is the very obvious current weakness in chip sector. Based on the recent optimistic rumors out of china, we think they can achieve fully domestic 7 nm line by end of next year. Which would be an extremely strong step toward independence in this very important sector. Having full supply chain all the way up to 7 nm process would allow them to supply everything from low end of the market to industrial chips to chips for computers and lower end smartphones. The only thing it doesn't cover is highest end smartphone chips. China has far and away the most number of fabs under construction and some of them are going to be advanced. By 2025, China will likely be able to capture most of domestic demand. The Chinese supply chain will also become legitimate players in the international market who are looking for competition to TSMC, Samsung, ASML, Lam and AMAT. This will have large geopoltical implications. And if they can have EUV in production after that, they will have completely succeeded in taking over this industry. It seems to me there is probably a 6 to 7 year process in this.

As discussed in other threads, they have already taken over the NEV industry. Based on all that i have seen in the past 3 months, Chinese battery makers have cornered the market in terms of foreign automaker production. Domestic automakers like BYD are likely to become even larger players in export market. Over time, I will also expect that they take over in areas like autonomous driving, Lidar, electric motor, power chips and MCUs. After all, BYD is already doing that with Toyota cars. It would be hard for foreign automakers without using the cheaper Chinese suppliers. I think they are probably 3 years away from total control of the market.

In renewables, they already lead the world in hydro and solar technology. Their onshore and offshore wind turbine technology will continue to get more competitive over time and likely to reach much higher market share in international market. They are even likely to become the dominant player in nuclear reactors with the Hualong-1 and other projects in the pipeline. Even considering security concerns from certain Western countries, China will likely make significant progress in the likely Nuclear renaissance we are going to have. It would be hard for China not to be dominant when they are the only one building nuclear plants. Aside from that, China's advantages in battery technology will also likely transfer to energy storage. Even in hydrogen fuel cell, they are making significant process and likely to be a leading player going forward. The next 5 years are likely when China will reach even greater control in the 0-carbon future. As long as Western countries continue to debate fossil fuels vs clean energy usage, they will not be able to put in the same policies needed.

Aside from this, China is making great progress in Bio tech, AI, Quantum computing, Robotics and all the supply chains. With the Europeans killing their own industries with these high energy prices, it's just a matter of time before more factories shut down and they rely on Chinese imports for high energy reliant fields. The likely outcome is that China will move up the value chain and offshore the lower cost industries to countries that are part of the BRI. I feel like this will be a transfer of wealth from Western economies to developing world.

The other part of this is the effect of BRI. As I discussed here China's infrastructure projects and strategic implications, BRI is a great project with the end goal of having most of the world's production and trading go through China. US political types keep freaking out about deep sea ports that China is taking over. When in reality, the goal is economical and industrial. It is about making the transportation from rest of the world to China as efficient and reliable as possible. All the infrastructure projects are aimed to increase connectivity to China. This allows China to be an integral supplier of trade between any two parties. We are still a few years away from the completion of many BRI projects. For example, having a completely connected rail/pipeline network in Central Asia will be huge to the region and to China. Completing all the deep sea ports in Africa and South America would allow much easier trading between China and these countries. Completing rail from China to Singapore would allow China to be the middle of all commerce in Asia. All commerce would either pass through sea lanes that China control or through railways that China built. And as part of BRI and increased commerce, CNH will slowly become a more important world currency. It will also make CIPS, UnionPay and Chinese banks a larger part of the international financial system. The Russia/Ukraine conflict has certainly sped up this portion. Eventually, any party that wants to evade Western sanctions will be able to get everything they need by using CNH, CIPS, UnionPay and interact with Chinese banks. That to me seems to be a reasonable end goal here. This is something that will likely take many years to play out.

As you can see, it is really not in China's interest to get in a large conflict when it can achieve most of its objectives slowly through industrialization, trading and infrastructure projects. Assuming we get through the end of this decade peacefully, China will likely have much increased leverage over Taiwan and other Asian countries. Taiwan's position will be a lot weaker if TSMC loses large portion of its market share to Chinese fabs.
The danger is American invasion.

If China is militarily weak, they will pursue the "Crimea option" and simply roll into Taiwan to declare a rigged referendum. However, unless Beijing sharply demilitarizes, US has nowhere near enough strength to do it.

But even if China currently has an overall quality and firepower lead, as long as they tease US with the possibility of victory by having a smaller and less funded military, there is a real risk of a sufficiently crazy US leader to follow the "Donbass option" instead, and engage directly in war for control over Taiwan.

"Quantity has a quality all on its own" and no matter how accurate and advanced you think your stuff is, in split second battles, what decides the win will be luck rather than the platforms. Having more platforms and more men then, means that you get to roll the dice more.

In order to dispel any hope of victory American leaders may have, China needs to lean into its economical advantage and embark on a military buildup to make an equal sized force compared to US.

Why did Russia choose to attack Ukraine and not Latvia? Because the ground forces of NATO are far too large and well equipped for Russia to have a hope of winning alone against.

If China has a deterrent through force strategy, America will be forced to turn elsewhere if they want a war. Then, the civil war can be solved with minimal bloodshed.
 

tphuang

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The danger is American invasion.

If China is militarily weak, they will pursue the "Crimea option" and simply roll into Taiwan to declare a rigged referendum. However, unless Beijing sharply demilitarizes, US has nowhere near enough strength to do it.

But even if China currently has an overall quality and firepower lead, as long as they tease US with the possibility of victory by having a smaller and less funded military, there is a real risk of a sufficiently crazy US leader to follow the "Donbass option" instead, and engage directly in war for control over Taiwan.

"Quantity has a quality all on its own" and no matter how accurate and advanced you think your stuff is, in split second battles, what decides the win will be luck rather than the platforms. Having more platforms and more men then, means that you get to roll the dice more.

In order to dispel any hope of victory American leaders may have, China needs to lean into its economical advantage and embark on a military buildup to make an equal sized force compared to US.

Why did Russia choose to attack Ukraine and not Latvia? Because the ground forces of NATO are far too large and well equipped for Russia to have a hope of winning alone against.

If China has a deterrent through force strategy, America will be forced to turn elsewhere if they want a war. Then, the civil war can be solved with minimal bloodshed.

Not sure how you came to that first conclusion. There won't be any American Invasion. Americans instinctually will push legislations that will support Taiwan independence but most Americans (including China hawks and politicians) don't believe they are pushing for wars. It's just that America has always been able to push its views internationally without a lot of pushback. So if you are China and are building your own sphere of influence in Asia through technological advancements and infrastructure projects. Are you going to have a quick trigger like a lot of people on this forum was yelling for in early August or are you going to wait until Taiwan actually crosses a red line? I think the answer is the latter. You try to push for your preferred candidate in the Taiwan election. Make it as easy as possible for Taiwanese that live on the mainland to vote in their election. That should be the way out of this. In the mean time, you try to fast track your own chips industry and seriously hurt the Taiwan chip industry. By the end of this decade, a slow Taiwan economy will force a lot more Taiwanese to migrate to work in the mainland and to rely on Chinese economy.
 

siegecrossbow

General
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Super Moderator
Not sure how you came to that first conclusion. There won't be any American Invasion. Americans instinctually will push legislations that will support Taiwan independence but most Americans (including China hawks and politicians) don't believe they are pushing for wars. It's just that America has always been able to push its views internationally without a lot of pushback. So if you are China and are building your own sphere of influence in Asia through technological advancements and infrastructure projects. Are you going to have a quick trigger like a lot of people on this forum was yelling for in early August or are you going to wait until Taiwan actually crosses a red line? I think the answer is the latter. You try to push for your preferred candidate in the Taiwan election. Make it as easy as possible for Taiwanese that live on the mainland to vote in their election. That should be the way out of this. In the mean time, you try to fast track your own chips industry and seriously hurt the Taiwan chip industry. By the end of this decade, a slow Taiwan economy will force a lot more Taiwanese to migrate to work in the mainland and to rely on Chinese economy.

The problem is KMT has no chance of gaining presidency unless the DPP screws up bigly.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Not sure how you came to that first conclusion. There won't be any American Invasion. Americans instinctually will push legislations that will support Taiwan independence but most Americans (including China hawks and politicians) don't believe they are pushing for wars. It's just that America has always been able to push its views internationally without a lot of pushback. So if you are China and are building your own sphere of influence in Asia through technological advancements and infrastructure projects. Are you going to have a quick trigger like a lot of people on this forum was yelling for in early August or are you going to wait until Taiwan actually crosses a red line? I think the answer is the latter. You try to push for your preferred candidate in the Taiwan election. Make it as easy as possible for Taiwanese that live on the mainland to vote in their election. That should be the way out of this. In the mean time, you try to fast track your own chips industry and seriously hurt the Taiwan chip industry. By the end of this decade, a slow Taiwan economy will force a lot more Taiwanese to migrate to work in the mainland and to rely on Chinese economy.
I understand what he means.

It's not necessarily an actual invasion, but the mechanics of what happened in Ukraine.

The so-called Maidan Revolution is portrayed in western media as a kind of popular "People's Revolution", when in actuality it was a really divisive thing within the country, best characterized by the rioting/arson attack in Odessa which killed dozens. By definition, the regime change was wholly undemocratic, even if the plurality of the voting population did support this (which we don't actually know because there was no vote).

This portrayal is how the groundswell for supporting the war was created.

We see the same thing in HK and Taiwan heavily in the last 10 or so years.
In HK, the 2019 riots were portrayed as a heroic struggle. Years later, we continue to see wild numbers thrown out like "2 million person march". The real number was much lower, and the only source for 2 million was an NGO (HK Alliance for Democracy or something like that, here's Reuters itself dispelling one particular case -
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) whose funding came from the NED (hardly an unbiased source). Even if we take the number as a true number, it still wouldn't necessarily be a plurality of votes (HK registered voters ~ 4 million
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)

We see the same thing happening in Taiwan. Every military advance made by the PRC is seen as some kind of "threat" to ROC, America, even SK, and Japan, etc. This is a country of more than a billion people, and they are expected to just continue to fly J-7s forever. It's an absurd expectation, yet this is the media environment that has been created. Ma Ying Jeou was a fairly popular leader, he went as far as meeting Xi in Singapore to ease the tensions across the strait. Suddenly the "Sunflower Movement" derailed his plans for a Free Trade agreement and the DPP rose to power. What happens when the next Sunflower Movement asks for formal US protection in the form of a permanent base (like the NATO movement in Ukraine)? The government of the day could pass such a bill under the guise of "democracy" as the party in power and triggering a war which no one wants. It would be different if an actual referendum was held like "Are you willing to fight the People's Liberation Army to secure the independence of Taiwan?", but who would vote for that?
 
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