Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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tphuang

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I understand what he means.

It's not necessarily an actual invasion, but the mechanics of what happened in Ukraine.

The so-called Maidan Revolution is portrayed in western media as a kind of popular "People's Revolution", when in actuality it was a really divisive thing within the country, best characterized by the rioting/arson attack in Odessa which killed dozens. By definition, the regime change was wholly undemocratic, even if the plurality of the voting population did support this (which we don't actually know because there was no vote).

This portrayal is how the groundswell for supporting the war was created.

We see the same thing in HK and Taiwan heavily in the last 10 or so years.
In HK, the 2019 riots were portrayed as a heroic struggle. Years later, we continue to see wild numbers thrown out like "2 million person march". The real number was much lower, and the only source for 2 million was an NGO (HK Alliance for Democracy or something like that, here's Reuters itself dispelling one particular case -
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) whose funding came from the NED (hardly an unbiased source). Even if we take the number as a true number, it still wouldn't necessarily be a plurality of votes (HK registered voters ~ 4 million
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)

We see the same thing happening in Taiwan. Every military advance made by the PRC is seen as some kind of "threat" to ROC, America, even SK, and Japan, etc. This is a country of more than a billion people, and they are expected to just continue to fly J-7s forever. It's an absurd expectation, yet this is the media environment that has been created. Ma Ying Jeou was a fairly popular leader, he went as far as meeting Xi in Singapore to ease the tensions across the strait. Suddenly the "Sunflower Movement" derailed his plans for a Free Trade agreement and the DPP rose to power. What happens when the next Sunflower Movement asks for formal US protection in the form of a permanent base (like the NATO movement in Ukraine)? The government of the day could pass such a bill under the guise of "democracy" as the party in power and triggering a war which no one wants. It would be different if an actual referendum was held like "Are you willing to fight the People's Liberation Army to secure the independence of Taiwan?", but who would vote for that?

Hmm, by this point, I think most Taiwanese realize that independence means having to fight PLA. Otherwise, Taiwan would've declared independence already. If you are China, you know you will get provoked. The question is where your red lines are. Also, if the red lines are not crossed, can you respond in ways that strengthen your position.

The recent Pelosi visit actually worked out okay for China in context of Asian power struggle. We now have the former Malaysian PM coming out and saying that ASEAN countries should side with China.

We have former Singapore FM coming out and saying Singapore is definitely not picking side and that Chinese people in Singapore would be on China's side. This is despite some Westerners being convinced that somehow Singapore will definitely pick America. Anyone who has been inside Singapore and spoken with Taxi drivers, restaurant workers, hotel staff and regular people will know that local Chinese people overwhelmingly support China.

So, if you are making this much progress while COVID is still a large part of their life, just imagine how much progress you can make in another 5 years when RCEP is further along, BRI is further along, COVID is behind us (hopefully) and Chinese tourists are bringing money to these countries instead of Europe. Counter provocations with ways to gain advantage.
 

BoeingEngineer

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How is the USN going to rebuild a fleet, if they don't have a fleet to defend their harbors where new fleets are built?

Even leaving direct strikes on the US out, this isn't the 1940s where you can churn out carriers like hot cakes, even with a total war economy. How much time will it take for the USN to rebuild a whole new fleet that can challenge China in WESTPAC again? And how much time will China have to respond to that newborn fleet? Point being: A decisive conventional victory in WESTPAC is very much possible, if you delete the enemy's existing air and naval forces.

Precisely !

If china destroy the entire us pacific fleet, it will take the us decades to rebuild, in the mean time china can build warships at much faster rate due to its vastly superior ship building industry !
 

BoeingEngineer

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The US doesn't even have enough firepower to deal with the priority aimpoints on China's mainland, let alone deal with this stuff. You can check the history of this thread to read Patchwork's analysis. It's surprising how ridiculously unprepared the US is in this theater. It's actually insane, given their rhetoric and Pelosi visits etc. The entire West is just going senile at this point imo. It's like the old man on the porch with a shotgun yelling at kids to stay off 'his' lawn.

this is indeed the case !

the only thing that still deters china from taking taiwan is the nuclear arsenal !

in as little as 3 years, china will have nuclear superiority over US + Russia

that's when china can start the war how every it wants, when ever it wants where ever it wants !!
 

Biscuits

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this is indeed the case !

the only thing that still deters china from taking taiwan is the nuclear arsenal !

in as little as 3 years, china will have nuclear superiority over US + Russia

that's when china can start the war how every it wants, when ever it wants where ever it wants !!
Completely impossible.

The only valid definition of nuclear superiority is ability to first strike the enemy with acceptable losses to the mainland. This is just impossible using 2022 technology, it is as impossible as switching the entire Chinese power grid to fusion energy in 3 years.

Even if China massively surged warhead production (which could fairly easily be done during lead up to conflict) from whatever high hundreds to low thousands into 10 000+, twice as many as USA, that wouldn't actually give China nuclear superiority. Nuking them 10 000 times instead of 1000 times doesn't matter because US will also get at least 1000 nukes through to China.

Going from MAD with 1k~ warheads to MAD with 10k warheads doesn't change the status quo.
 

BoeingEngineer

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The only valid definition of nuclear superiority is ability to first strike the enemy with acceptable losses to the mainland. This is just impossible using 2022 technology, it is as impossible as switching the entire Chinese power grid to fusion energy in 3 years.

Going from MAD with 1k~ warheads to MAD with 10k warheads doesn't change the status quo.

if china has the combined nukes deployed on ICBM and SLBM of russia and us which is at 1500 each, meaning china will have 3000 nukes in a few years ! this is what i mean nuclear superiority !

this will make america's nuclear bluff totally hollow and worthless !!
 

Overbom

Brigadier
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Preemptive strike is the answer.

If the PLA deems a war unavoidable and the chance of a US intervention at >10-15% then a first strike is inevitable and the correct strategy.

US biggest strength against China is nothing but its foundation. Foundation built during the Cold War, foundation that has been strengthened for almost a century while China was at its knees and extremely poor.

As such, the best solution for China to remove this US advantage is a first strike which would eliminate decades-worth of built up in a single day(s).
Each carrier sank means that China has successfully destroyed 7-years of carrier foundation from the US and thus reduced the gap between it and the US. Same with frigates and with destroyers.

Of course this doesn't mean that we should have a war next day, instead as usual, the ideal course of action is peace and strengthening yourself. However, because reality usually clashes with dreams and plans, you should start getting ready because the US isn't an idiot and knows that with each passing year its position is getting weaker vs China.


And before I forget, drop the criminal PLA underinvestment bs policy already. We better have a >10% increase in military spending next year. I don't care if its publicised or not. Just do it, either put your money where your mouth is or shut up and stop wasting our time. The clouds of war are already gathering and whoever doesn't see serious turbulence or a catastrophe on the horizon is, frankly, a Trump-level idiot.
 

supersnoop

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Hmm, by this point, I think most Taiwanese realize that independence means having to fight PLA. Otherwise, Taiwan would've declared independence already. If you are China, you know you will get provoked. The question is where your red lines are. Also, if the red lines are not crossed, can you respond in ways that strengthen your position.
Scary thing is this:
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Last year a majority thought both US AND Japan will come fight for THEIR independence.
I believe this is a Green organization that undertook the survey, so I'm skeptical of the relevance to the island as a whole. But certainly it is reflective of the thinking in the Green camp itself.

After the Ukraine war, the belief has dropped
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However, it is still pretty significant, and I believe that wunderwaffe advertising raises this belief level back up.

The recent Pelosi visit actually worked out okay for China in context of Asian power struggle. We now have the former Malaysian PM coming out and saying that ASEAN countries should side with China.

We have former Singapore FM coming out and saying Singapore is definitely not picking side and that Chinese people in Singapore would be on China's side. This is despite some Westerners being convinced that somehow Singapore will definitely pick America. Anyone who has been inside Singapore and spoken with Taxi drivers, restaurant workers, hotel staff and regular people will know that local Chinese people overwhelmingly support China.

So, if you are making this much progress while COVID is still a large part of their life, just imagine how much progress you can make in another 5 years when RCEP is further along, BRI is further along, COVID is behind us (hopefully) and Chinese tourists are bringing money to these countries instead of Europe. Counter provocations with ways to gain advantage.
PRC is ruled by far more rational people than the US as evidenced by the recent Pelosi visit. What if Xi Jinping was as crazy as the media makes him out to be and blew Pelosi out of the sky? Then it would have been extremely difficult from either side to step back. Yet, the USA is willing to play this kind of high stakes game as it did in Ukraine. I truly thought it was madness for them to do that.

The visit serves no real purpose. The subsequent parade of politicians from different countries are simply doing a dog and pony show for their own constituents to "stand up to China". Of course it is noticeable that they are all European or North American, and unfortunately the Taiwanese do not recognize they are the animals in these productions.

All of these clowns rely on PRC's own cognizance that these people are not going to pick up a gun, or fly a plane if the time comes, but it's still a game.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
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After the Ukraine war, the belief has dropped
After the Pelosi shenanigans and the subsequent unprecedented PLA exercises on Taiwanese waters while US carriers were sitting some hundreds(thousand?) miles away, I would be interested an updated poll.

I predict a big decrease on people believing that the US and Japan would help them.
 

AndrewS

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@tphuang

And if we look to future, we can expect the Chinese stock of advanced weapons to roughly double in the next 9-10 years. That's based on historical GDP figures, % spent on the military, along with assumptions on a 30-year typical weapon lifespan and constant % spent on procurement. But what will this be spent on?

If we look at the situation today, the key to a successful US military intervention over Taiwan is Japan and Guam. Guam is US territory, but Japan can be peeled off.

At the moment Japan is committed to supporting the US in a Taiwan. But Japan can be persuaded not to allow the US military to use Japanese bases, because Japan is essentially a larger version of Taiwan, which China can blockade.

Both Japan and Taiwan are densely populated islands with no natural resources and rely on imports for food and fuel.

Geographically, they both lie on the fringes of the Asian mainland, relatively close to China. In comparison, the US is all the way across the vast Pacific Ocean. There are only a few scattered islands in the middle that could be used to support Taiwan, Japan or Guam.

So if China wanted the capability to conduct a surprise first missile strike and then deny Japan electricity, fuel and food (like Taiwan), it's feasible for China to build such a force

If China wanted to conduct a Taiwan-style missile strike on Japan, I reckon something like 500 DF-17 MRBMs with a reload of another 500 DF-17 should have a similar effect and ground the Japanese Air Force. This should be easily affordable given a DF-17 missile cost of <$2 million.

That opens the door to follow-on airstrikes by the Chinese Air Force. However, Japan is at a significantly further distance than Taiwan and there are many fewer Chinese airbases in range of Japan, plus there is a thin strip of North Korean territory in the way if Chinese fighter aircraft want to reach Central or Eastern Japan. Otherwise these areas will become secure rear bases.

In terms of Chinese access through North Korean airspace, I don't see a big issue. North Korea is internationally isolated and depends on China for 80-90% of its trade. And if China loses a war with the US, then North Korea is utterly alone and faces the prospect of collapse. But if China wins a war against the US, then the US military threat from South Korea is gone. So North Korea will tacitly allow Chinese aircraft through its airspace.

Now, Japan is still quite a distance with the Westernmost point of the Japanese Home Islands some 900 km from Shanghai. The distances are a little further from Chinese Manchuria to the rest of the Japanese Home Islands.

I reckon China would still need to sustain at least 400 fighter-sized sorties per day to prevent Japanese airfields and ports from being resupplied by the US.

So in terms of procurement, that means more J-20 stealth fighters, J-16 strike fighters, Y-20U tankers and also H-6/H-20 bombers. This would also also require additional bases in Manchuria

If China pursues this military strategy against Japan, I don't see any effective counter that the US or Japan could do.

In such a scenario, Japan can add very little to a Taiwan conflict, so what is the point in Japan committing national suicide by joining the US in a way against China?

At the same time, from the US perspective, Japan could become a huge liability as all of Japan would be under sustained air attack, yet cargo ships and cargo aircraft still have to land in Japan to break a blockade.

So I expect that in 10 years or so, both the US and Japan will agree that it isn't in their interests for Japan to go to war against China over Taiwan. And it's not credible for the US to succeed in Taiwan if the nearest bases are in Hawaii or Australia.

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Now, this is my best guess as to what will happen in the future, assuming we avoid a war. But it's even more probable if there was a war tomorrow. In the aftermath, China would likely rebuild everything within 5 years, given what we've seen happen in past wars and the speed of China's peacetime construction. Then I reckon it would take another at most another 10 years for China to conduct the same strategy against Japan and Taiwan if necessary. In the following 10 years, the military balance would be overwhelmingly in China's favour.

Hence my view that it would be stupid for Japan to join the US in a war against China.

South Korea and SE Asia have already come to the conclusion that is better to be neutral than follow the US
 
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