Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle · Mar 6, 2021

lgnxz said:
Pretty much every single chinese media, even your own satellite images, put china's LAC in the pp14. How do you get the idea that china wants to invade all the way into the river mouth? This statement is false simply because it's you who started the incident, as written in the link that you yourself put?

If china does want to invade and change the LAC, why is india the one who take the initiative and intrude to pp14, as shown with the written statement and the satellite images?

All China asked in the statement is to empty the area between the mouth and pp14, which as you again posted here, have been done by your side. How's that a lose for china, manage to ask you to empty part of your own area? You see a pattern here? Buffer zones includes indians emptying f3-f4, galwan valley includes you emptying mouth to patch of land near pp14. Classic india, 'winning' by vacating it's own territory at china's behest lmao.

You are not making any sense. The Galwan mouth is where the galwan meets the shyok. Between that, I have already shown images of Indian permanent camps and infrastructure in the valley. So no, China did not acheive its objectives there

And by your logic, india vacated f4-f5. China vacated f4-f8 and agreed not to patrol beyond finger 3. Yes, big win for China by retreating from its own claimed territory.

lgnxz · Mar 6, 2021

twineedle said:
You are not making any sense. The Galwan mouth is where the galwan meets the shyok. Between that, I have already shown images of Indian permanent camps and infrastructure in the valley. So no, China did not acheive its objectives there

And by your logic, india vacated f4-f5. China vacated f4-f8 and agreed not to patrol beyond finger 3. Yes, big win for China by retreating from its own claimed territory.

You don't get what buffer zones mean huh? No facilities are allowed in the area, so no indian facilities in f3-f4, let alone to f5. No wonder you get constant insult at this point, seem to me that you clearly deserved it with the constant gaslighting.

twineedle · Mar 6, 2021

lgnxz said:
You don't get what buffer zones mean huh? No facilities are allowed in the area, so no indian facilities in f3-f4, let alone to f5. No wonder you get constant insult at this point, seem to me that you clearly deserved it with the constant gaslighting.

When did I dispute that? I simply pointed out that china cannot build anything between f3-f8. Are you denying that?

lgnxz · Mar 6, 2021

twineedle said:
When did I dispute that? I simply pointed out that china cannot build anything between f3-f8. Are you denying that?

And neither can you. And because china is not as reliant as you with the patrolling strategy in controlling the LAC, which one is getting more from the buffer zones agreement?

Like it's not that hard to understand man...

You constantly do these useless patrols into the contested zone more often as if it means anything other than doing a photo ops and provoke meaningless fisticuffs, while china can just maintain it's logistics and when needed, rapidly deploy into the contested area, aka actually controlling it. We show you how your constant patrolling means nothing by taking f4-f8 in a blink of an eye, and now that you can't no longer patrol not only in f4-f8 but now includes f3-f4, you claim it as a win? Well then I really hope india keeps winning then

lgnxz · Mar 6, 2021

"Since April this year, the Indian border troops have unilaterally and continuously built roads, bridges and other facilities at the LAC in the Galwan Valley. China has lodged representations and protests on multiple occasions but India has gone even further to cross the LAC and make provocations. By the early morning of May 6, the Indian border troops, who have crossed the LAC by night and trespassed into China's territory, have built fortification and barricades, which impeded the patrol of Chinese border troops They deliberately made provocations in an attempt to unilaterally change the status quo of control and management. The Chinese border troops have been forced to take necessary measures to respond to the situation on the ground and strengthen management and control in the border areas.

In order to ease the situation, China and India have stayed in close communication through military and diplomatic channels. In response to the strong demand of the Chinese side, India agreed to withdraw the personnel who crossed the LAC and demolish the facilities, and so they did. On June 6, the border troops of both countries held a commander-level meeting and reached consensus on easing the situation. The Indian side promised that they would not cross the estuary of the Galwan river to patrol and build facilities and the two sides would discuss and decide phased withdrawal of troops through the meetings between commanders on the ground."

Paragraph 1 to 2 of your link. You already start building up in the estuary way before the clash happened. And what did China do? Merely lodging reps and sending protests.. This is what you considered as China 'attempting to take galwan mouth'?? ONLY after you crossed the LAC is when you finally crossed China's bottom line. The June 6 agreement (note that this is an agreement, which is what YOU supposedly also agree with, a mutual bipartisan consensus, NOT a one-side objective that you try to paint China with) is just a bonus of from mere protests. But of course, hindsight and history has shown that your kind is not trustworthy, as the 15 June clash happened inside China's LAC. It can be said that the indians have no intention to fulfil their end of the bargain from the beginning, so we should know that the current buffer zones agreement can also be broken at anytime since it also put them in the disadvantage.

twineedle · Mar 6, 2021

Lol it is China that patrols the disputed territory more. The fact China has been building infrastructure there since 2000 shows that. india very rarely, if ever patrolled that area the past the [ast few decades while China would patrol it on a regular basis. It is clear that at least in pangong, the buffer zone benefits india, since China cannot patrol beyond finger 8, and all the recently built infrastructure is destroyred. China retreating from chinese territory it patrolled and built up is definitely a victory lol, at least to desperate chinese members here.

Meanwhile in Galwan, the presence of permanent camps and infrastructure such as bridges, roads, and tracks indicates that india does regularly patrol the valley, if conditions are favorable.

twineedle · Mar 6, 2021

lgnxz said:
"Since April this year, the Indian border troops have unilaterally and continuously built roads, bridges and other facilities at the LAC in the Galwan Valley. China has lodged representations and protests on multiple occasions but India has gone even further to cross the LAC and make provocations. By the early morning of May 6, the Indian border troops, who have crossed the LAC by night and trespassed into China's territory, have built fortification and barricades, which impeded the patrol of Chinese border troops They deliberately made provocations in an attempt to unilaterally change the status quo of control and management. The Chinese border troops have been forced to take necessary measures to respond to the situation on the ground and strengthen management and control in the border areas.

In order to ease the situation, China and India have stayed in close communication through military and diplomatic channels. In response to the strong demand of the Chinese side, India agreed to withdraw the personnel who crossed the LAC and demolish the facilities, and so they did. On June 6, the border troops of both countries held a commander-level meeting and reached consensus on easing the situation. The Indian side promised that they would not cross the estuary of the Galwan river to patrol and build facilities and the two sides would discuss and decide phased withdrawal of troops through the meetings between commanders on the ground."

Paragraph 1 to 2 of your link. You already start building up in the estuary way before the clash happened. And what did China do? Merely lodging reps and sending protests.. This is what you considered as China 'attempting to take galwan mouth'?? ONLY after you crossed the LAC is when you finally crossed China's bottom line. The June 6 agreement (note that this is an agreement, which is what YOU supposedly also agree with, a mutual bipartisan consensus, NOT a one-side objective that you try to paint China with) is just a bonus of from mere protests. But of course, hindsight and history has shown that your kind is not trustworthy, as the 15 June clash happened inside China's LAC. It can be said that the indians have no intention to fulfil their end of the bargain from the beginning, so we should know that the current buffer zones agreement can also be broken at anytime since it also put them in the disadvantage.

yes you are correct. india was building over the estuary, or mouth. and that bridge was completed, and more recently upgraded to take heavy vehicular traffic.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1367491450812977157

That is exactly on the estuary.

lgnxz · Mar 6, 2021

twineedle said:
Lol it is China that patrols the disputed territory more

Ah I see, so NOW after you're getting cornered you start to do a complete 180 huh. You no longer agree with that retired general that you brought up here earlier? How convenient

twineedle said:
The fact China has been building infrastructure there since 2000 shows that

How's this supposed to support your argument? Building more infrastructure doesn't necessary mean that you patrol more. In contrary, since you CAN'T afford to build the infrastructure, you need to patrol a lot more. And it makes sense, when you have roads, logistics, vehicles, all these benefits that support defence that achieve the same function as patrol but does it way better, the need for patrolling is lessen since you can guarantee border security without endangering and tiring your soldiers with the constant patrols.

Same goes on the other side, because india can't afford to have the same logistical and rapid deployment capability as china, you have to constantly do these dangerous patrol for your soldiers to do border security. Between you, a cornered indian who's starting to lose his argument, and the retired indian general that says the contrary, I'm gonna trust the general's words, sorry

twineedle said:
Meanwhile in Galwan, the presence of permanent camps and infrastructure such as bridges, roads, and tracks indicates that india does regularly patrol the valley, if conditions are favorable.

If you actually look at the link that you post here, china did nothing when you started building on the estuary, merely protesting. It's your territory afterall, only when you cross the LAC is when you cross the bottom line. How's this so difficult to understand? Can you explain your government's behavior that instructs the crossing into someone else's territory? Explain how you made an agreement that you then broke merely days later? Explain to the family of your dead soldiers on how all these are unnecessary and can be avoided if your government is not a complete idiot who tries to take an advantage in the middle of epidemic crisis.

twineedle · Mar 6, 2021

Now that their arguements have been debunked, some members here are trying to use an intentioanlly disambiguous statement by VK SIngh to justify China's retreat. VK SIngh did not specify where, it could have been anywhere along the lac, likely in areas wehre india has the advantage like Sikkim and parts of arunachal. The fact that China had so much infrastructure between fingers 4 and 8 shows China effectively controlled that region since 1962. That is why whenever indian soldiers went near finger 4, that triggered clashes like the videos from 2017 and 2019.

Now almost all the infrastructure china built is gone, and they can no longer patrol up to China's claim line and are forced to respect India's claim line of finger 8. Yes a big Chinese victory lol.

BTW I am glad we can clarify that the galwan estuary is the mouth, meaning that according to the embassy statement, CHina's new claim includes the entire valley. Unfortunately, china failed to reach its claim line and had to withdraw from pp14.

lgnxz · Mar 6, 2021

twineedle said:
Now almost all the infrastructure china built is gone, and they can no longer patrol up to China's claim line and are forced to respect India's claim line of finger 8. Yes a big Chinese victory lol.

Don't put the indian mindset on whatever China does, where we are simply not on the same league. For you, a country that's not capable even the slightest in infrastructure building, every inferior structure that you made (bridge, camps, its distance) are treated as a crown jewel that can completely flip the state of battle or close the capability gap between us.

Same twisted logic is also applied but on the other end of the spectrum. While if your enemies infrastructure is dismantled, you also treat it with the same exaggeration on how China is losing very badly, because you just don't consider how the difference of capability between the 2 is affecting those changes.

In reality, your infrastructure build up in galwan doesn't help you win the fight on 15 June, and every dismantled structure that China made throughout the incident (since the agreement of dismantling is made for these new structures anyway) is built at such a fast speed and such effectiveness, you should expect that China will be able to do the same in the future.

twineedle said:
BTW I am glad we can clarify that the galwan estuary is the mouth, meaning that according to the embassy statement, CHina's new claim includes the entire valley. Unfortunately, china failed to reach its claim line and had to withdraw from pp14.

There is different between you 'crossing the estuary' and you 'crossing the LAC'. Please read it carefully, I know indian's literacy rate on its own language is way behind, let alone in english, but you should understand the difference. China merely send out protests when you escalate the deployment on the estuary, but you get the stitches when you try to cross into pp14. 2 different reactions, indicating that China's claim of LAC remains the same.

Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle

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lgnxz

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lgnxz

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