Ladakh Flash Point

ougoah said:

Okay and keeping on the topic of Depsang, why is it that if the status apparently hasn't changed for decades and China is sitting on Indian claims as India sits on China's, why is this such a hot topic with much attention from Indian higher ups?

Who is actually telling the truth? No one here owns their own satellite live feed to get real time updates so let's throw out satellite footage "proof" for the sake of understanding the situation here. Satellite photos don't show movement and what's not there at a certain time in the past does not mean that much on the ground. So why is it that some Indian political and military (retired) figures claim that China is taking parts of India's Depsang claims?

If nothings changed for decades why did Indian MoD claim there are "problems" with Depsang, Hot springs, gogra? Yes those problems may simply be build up and artillery positions behind claims but that could be as undesirable as occupation especially if the other side has stopped build up and moved troops and artillery far behind. I think this isn't something that can be proven here especially if India's own gov and opposition cannot or will not prove their claims either. So if they with the truth and resources won't and can't prove, then we have no chance of doing that until the BJP officially issue statements.

All I know is that the Indian opposition HAS officially issued statements claiming that China is taking some undisclosed amount (they claim wild varying km^2 lost) of India's claims and presumably India is doing that too since China's claim also stretch beyond LAC in Depsang, I think to DBO road?

Could India's BJP refusal to provide the promised updates on Depsang be related to ongoing talks? We know talks have still taken place presumably about disengagement in Depsang. Could the recent Chinese cyber attack on Indian power networks be a demonstration from China to gain bargaining power and position like they did with Pangong when China's PLA occupied almost the totality of the dispute? This seems to be China's MO, gain bargaining power and position through show of force or capability (non lethal as much as possible and relatively indestructive but effective).

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twineedle said:

The Indian government is obviously trying to solve the disputes in Depsang that have essentially been tabled by both sides since 2013. AS I said before, that is why depsang was discussed seperately, because it was not part of this standoff. As for your question why some analysts and politicians are lying- for political purposes. Think about it. If the opposition actually convinces people what they are saying is true, they might be able to win an election. Unfortunately for them(and members here using their claims) they have no evidence backing them up.

In order to occupy land long term, soldiers need support infrastructure that can easily be spotted by satellites. I have already posted images of nearly all buildup in hot springs and gogra while you posted those images of Depsang. Not to mention it would be very difficult and strategically unviable for China to occupy territory in those areas due to India's successful mirror deployments. Soo China responded to Indian buildup in areas it claims by building up artillery, camps etc. on its side. That has already been proven by the images I have posted.

And since you are saying it COULD be possible that Chinese is occupying Indian territory. Well I guess anything is possible. It is just as likely that India is occupying Chinese territory, by your logic. It seems you are trying to turn a simple word by the Indian mod into a narrative about Gogra and Hot Springs that isn't supported by any evidence. And no, statments by a few politicians and indian media outlets aren't evidence, especially when they are in the minority.
And what does the cyberattack have to do with this? That WASN'T a recent attack. Every news outlet says the outage occurred on October 12.

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ougoah said:

While I think it's entirely possible that the opposition is making it all up and dramatising it for the purpose of winning elections, why hasn't the BJP officially put their opposition claims to rest with some declaration and setting the record straight? It seems like the perfect move and response. It'll humiliate and expose the opposition.

Members here using which opposition claims in reference to which side of the dispute at Ladakh? At Pangong the situation is relatively transparent now - total dispute made in buffer with understanding that Indian side will not move beyond F3 for patrols or anything. No mention of PLA activity but PLA vacating occupied land, no word on PLA conducting patrols but being buffer, it's almost certain PLA won't entre beyond F8. At Depsang, it's only been me who has pointed out opposition claims. Something the Indian MoD semi-recognised. At least recognised as "problems" yet unresolved. I suppose we'll have to wait and see if any authority provides some more official statements on this or if obvious developments become exposed.

The power grid cyber attack from late 2020 was only exposed recently. It goes towards showing that it was done during a time of negotiations reaching agreements. It is absolutely related to disengagement even if we leave Depsang out of that.

China has chosen not to complete the 219 National Highway through Aksai Chin despite firmly controlling it which is still disputed and claimed by India still if I'm not mistaken? Since the 1962 war and agreements that ceded Aksai Chin to China, the Depsang plains area hasn't been a border of contention. Since early 2020 though, we've been hearing noise from the Indian sides that China's opened up the Depsang front in response to IA confrontations at the Galwan river north west valleys to Y junction disputes that also run into Pangong lake. It would appear strange that all that noise for the entire year was all nothing. It could well be nothing since one side from India is nearly always lying because they occupy present contradicting information.

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twineedle said:

Depsang first became a major flash point in 2013 when China first started building up there in large numbers and expanding infrastructure near the lac. Because of its superior infrastructure near the bottleneck or y junction, China does have a minor tactical advantage in preventing India from reaching its claims. However, India is still able to block Chinese patrols from its burtse post. That is what the problems are. To some extent, the problem there cooled down when China agreed to back down in Depsang in exchange for india destroying infrastructure in Chumar, though problems there have obviously been reignited. Essentially, The indian goverment is trying to solve the probems left unsoved in 2013.

This is the best article on Depsang I could find

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The BJP has responded to Congress several times, and the Indian government has as well

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On a side note, this is what the MP representing Ladakh has s

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twineedle said:

There are far more Indian media articles saying India won than China. But I have avoided posting them, since any Indian media favorable to India is discredited here.

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manqiangrexue said:

Well, that's obviously because failing is an Indian tradition so those who claim against the obvious truth will be scrutinized. If a kid had Ds and Fs in class, then those who say he's gonna work at MacDonalds if he stays out of jail will get a "duh" pass and those who claim that he's an undiscovered genius will have a lot to contend with. India's failures in economics, military competence, COVID management, and social stability have made it a joke to argue for its success in any way.

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