Ladakh Flash Point

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ougoah

Brigadier
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twineedle said:
1. Disengagement means both sides moving away from each other. so there could be incomplete disengagement even if neither side violated the lac.

As per India, if China has artillery that it moved within a few km of the lac, that means disengagement is incomplete. That is what the problems India is referring to are. So according to India, disengagement is incomplete until China moves its artillery and temporary camps it has behind the lac back to depth areas. This actually began back in June, when China mpved some frontline troops back to this location.

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2. As I already explained, India does not claim past the lac in Gogra hot springs. The only disputed area there is that bulge claimed by China. China has artillery guns about 3 km behind the lac near there.
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Yes you could be right that the "problems" are infact simply these artillery units so close to the Galwan River. We'll need India's government or China's to release updates on this one to conclude.

Why they don't simply settle on the Galwan river being the border? That seems like it'll make both sides happy enough. I'm not familiar with the claims in this region. Are there mutually accepted maps on China's claims in Galwan/ Depsang, goga hs etc and India's? That were proven reliable and accurate? Would be interesting seeing this since it's not as high profile as Pangong.
 
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twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
Yes you could be right that the "problems" are infact simply these artillery units so close to the Galwan River.

Why they don't simply settle on the Galwan river being the border? That seems like it'll make both sides happy enough. I'm not familiar with the claims in this region. Are there mutually accepted maps on China's claims in Galwan/ Depsang, goga hs etc and India's? That were proven reliable and accurate? Would be interesting seeing this since it's not as high profile as Pangong.
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Um I think you are a bit mistaken here. I was talking about the hot-springs gogra sector, not Galwan. neither side has artillery in the valley. The best image of the area I could find was what Abhijit created in that Print article, although perhaps China could claim more. Essentially, there is one strategically important area(drawn as a bulge in Iyer's map) that China claims, but lies on India's side of the LAC. China has artillery about 3 from India's claim there, and India of course did a mirror deployment. That is definitely the problem spot, China's main post in the area is about 15 km from gogra post, though it has been expanded recently.

As for why Galwan isn't the border, I guess it is because it isnt a straight line. Making the bend the valley actually makes sense imo from a geographical standpoint.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
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This opinion piece is fairly accurate but states the obvious. China and India are going into a new era of increased hostilities despite what seems to be cooling tensions with the recent disengagement agreements.

BJP narratives and demagoguery combined with general incompetence (relative to a better alternative government in India) is going to ensure this becomes increasingly true. CCP ought to understand and prepare despite CCP being far more interested in developing China proper and engaging in a higher order struggle - overcoming poverty, development problems, social and structural problems, creating more technology industries it can compete and lead e.g. 5G, telecomm, internet of things, narrow AI, computing, energy, and so on. It really has to deal with its inverted population pyramid and value chain movement. There are different and new peaks yet unexplored for all but India will almost certainly act as antagonist for some time to come.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
Um I think you are a bit mistaken here. I was talking about the hot-springs gogra sector, not Galwan. neither side has artillery in the valley. The best image of the area I could find was what Abhijit created in that Print article, although perhaps China could claim more. Essentially, there is one strategically important area(drawn as a bulge in Iyer's map) that China claims, but lies on India's side of the LAC. China has artillery about 3 from India's claim there, and India of course did a mirror deployment. That is definitely the problem spot, China's main post in the area is about 15 km from gogra post, though it has been expanded recently.

As for why Galwan isn't the border, I guess it is because it isnt a straight line. Making the bend the valley actually makes sense imo from a geographical standpoint.
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Plenty of other border sections are marked by rivers, mountain tops (Kailash for example) and other geographic landmarks. This is rather common for areas that none have truly ever settled or established historic connections to.

BTW if you or anyone have formal (or anything close) maps of Indian and Chinese claim lines along the north western side of Ladakh dispute, please share. It is going to be so useful in interpreting random satellite images. As in actually interpret all of them and assess as properly as possible. It'll also be good to see the big picture.
 
Gatekeeper

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
So what counts as evidence then? He has presented no evidence to counter my arguements, only Indian media articles from dubious sources.
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OMG! You still don't get it. And what's your 'evidence'? Just because someone on your side says so, doesn t it make it so!

What about the rest of my post? You seem to cherry pick on one thing and ignore the others you don't like or can't answer. And while you are at it, I'm still waiting for any evidence of super power India 2020.

The truth of the matter is we don't care how you perceived who's won. It's not a dick measuring contest.

Ok we all agreed you've won, and you have got the biggest dick. Better! Go and lay down out of the sun, it's not doing you any good!

And remember, because we, and you say so, doesn't make it so.

IMG-20210215-WA0009.jpg
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I wonder if some member here appreciate the hilarity of insisting on getting into stupid and pointless PP measuring contests when the other side manifestly doesn’t care, and then whip out the most hair-splittingly small measuring stick use to try to ‘prove’ their superiority.
 
A

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Since wikipedia is an unreliable source, I think I'd briefly put down a rough timeline as to what happened.

Prior to June - multiple encounters between Chinese and Indian troops - however the majority of these have been resolved without casualties.

13th June - a forward Indian patrol group enters Chinese territory to dismantle and set fire to tents that the Chinese army have set up on the Chinese side. This group includes Colonel Babu. There's been speculation that this isn't unusual behaviour for the Indian army, and officers often accompany these expeditions along with photographers to gain promotions and personal favours from seniority.

Indian sources say the tents were empty, however people here have said there were 4 unarmed civilians(?) in the tent who were killed by the Indian. I believe that given the change in Chinese attitude (see below).

Whatever happened - Chinese policy clearly changed on this day.

15th June - the Chinese army ambush the Indian forces at night time. It is a complete rout with at least Indian 20 soldiers dead. There seems to have been not much fighting and most Indian soldiers seem to have died in the confusion of fleeing. Colonel Babu is among the casualties. Chinese anger quickly turns into compassion and they spend the rest of the night and next morning rescuing injured Indian soldiers.

16th June - PLA western command blames India for starting the incident - likely referring to the 13th June incident.

19th June Modi confirms that Chinese didn't enter Indian territory, indirectly confirming the incident was due to an Indian incursion.

22th June the USA gets involved - US intelligence reports via media that the Chinese sanctioned the skirmish. Seems to be light on details, and is referring to the 15th June incident.


The only official video release was the one in Chinese where they release the names of their KIA.
I've seen 3 videos which I think have been leaked unofficially - these date around the time of the incident. Some say it is from before June 15th, I suspect they are after due to the large numbers of Indian soldiers & the presence of riot gear.

Either way, Indian army completely fail to dislodge the Chinese army until the recent ceasefire agreement.

The one thing that stands out was the death of Colonel Babu. I believe he was targeted by the Chinese army - he must have done something to upset them. It was a lesson to the upper echelons of the Indian army - if you play games with us, you will pay the price.
 
PiSigma

PiSigma

"the engineer"
Abominable said:
Since wikipedia is an unreliable source, I think I'd briefly put down a rough timeline as to what happened.

Prior to June - multiple encounters between Chinese and Indian troops - however the majority of these have been resolved without casualties.

13th June - a forward Indian patrol group enters Chinese territory to dismantle and set fire to tents that the Chinese army have set up on the Chinese side. This group includes Colonel Babu. There's been speculation that this isn't unusual behaviour for the Indian army, and officers often accompany these expeditions along with photographers to gain promotions and personal favours from seniority.

Indian sources say the tents were empty, however people here have said there were 4 unarmed civilians(?) in the tent who were killed by the Indian. I believe that given the change in Chinese attitude (see below).

Whatever happened - Chinese policy clearly changed on this day.

15th June - the Chinese army ambush the Indian forces at night time. It is a complete rout with at least Indian 20 soldiers dead. There seems to have been not much fighting and most Indian soldiers seem to have died in the confusion of fleeing. Colonel Babu is among the casualties. Chinese anger quickly turns into compassion and they spend the rest of the night and next morning rescuing injured Indian soldiers.

16th June - PLA western command blames India for starting the incident - likely referring to the 13th June incident.

19th June Modi confirms that Chinese didn't enter Indian territory, indirectly confirming the incident was due to an Indian incursion.

22th June the USA gets involved - US intelligence reports via media that the Chinese sanctioned the skirmish. Seems to be light on details, and is referring to the 15th June incident.


The only official video release was the one in Chinese where they release the names of their KIA.
I've seen 3 videos which I think have been leaked unofficially - these date around the time of the incident. Some say it is from before June 15th, I suspect they are after due to the large numbers of Indian soldiers & the presence of riot gear.

Either way, Indian army completely fail to dislodge the Chinese army until the recent ceasefire agreement.

The one thing that stands out was the death of Colonel Babu. I believe he was targeted by the Chinese army - he must have done something to upset them. It was a lesson to the upper echelons of the Indian army - if you play games with us, you will pay the price.
Click to expand...
Pretty much it except the Chinese army did not ambush the Indians, it was the other way around.
 
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