Ladakh Flash Point

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Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
China has already won. There is no way US will revive TPP, there simply isn't the political will to push it through the republican senate. The future of the world economy is RCEP.

India, by refusing to put down its pride and join RCEP has secured its future as an economic pariah. Automation is already starting, its too late for India to copy the export-led growth of China, Korea and Japan. What can India offer to the world other than cow milk and tech support?
You're right. China have already won. RCEP is going ahead, and TPP is currently in limbo. By the time Biden is able to push forward the TPP, RCEP is already in full swing.

India's time have run out. Automation is maturing. There are many other countries in Asia and Africa lining up to do business with China. What more with all the first-world countries now rethinking about outsourcing manufacturing. RCEP and BRI are India's last chances. And yet, India decides to opt out of them, so its fate is sealed. India joining the Quad is useless for the economy. India's population is still growing fast, and without enough employment, its looking very ugly in the future. Unemployment breeds crime. Mexico is a prime example. China and the more prosperous neighbouring countries might need to manage India in the future like how the US manages Mexico.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
If China is withdrawing troops from Pangong then what it has actually achieved by this whole confrontation? They should not give up the land they have gained. India will clearly interpret such a result as a victory. China must keep atleast some troops in the area they now control so that India cannot claim that the status quo has been restored. China needs to humiliate India this time to deal a firm blow to their Superpower delusions.

China must make it absolutely clear that China is a superior state to India and India can never act as if it is China's equal in terms of power and prestige. Once this fact is firmly established in the Indian mindset. There will be peace and no more Indian attempts to stop Chinese influence in Indian Ocean. India for example, does not object to massive US presence and influence in that region. China has to be atleast equal to US and gain similar level of ease. But that can only be gained through strength.
Exactly. China must not repeat the mistake of 1962 by retreating from victory and giving India 'time' to negotiate. China gave India 58 years to negotiate a border settlement, and look at the result today. China needs to stake its claim with a firm hand this time. No more compromises. 58 years of compromise had yielded nothing from India. The border must be redrawn on China's terms now. If India don't like it, they need to be punished with overwhelming force and humiliation. India doesn't want to negotiate like a civilized state after all these years, so it should be treated as a pariah.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Exactly. China must not repeat the mistake of 1962 by retreating from victory and giving India 'time' to negotiate. China gave India 58 years to negotiate a border settlement, and look at the result today. China needs to stake its claim with a firm hand this time. No more compromises. 58 years of compromise had yielded nothing from India. The border must be redrawn on China's terms now. If India don't like it, they need to be punished with overwhelming force and humiliation. India doesn't want to negotiate like a civilized state after all these years, so it should be treated as a pariah.

China had to retreat because they didn’t have the logistics to supply a prolonged war. This is no longer an issue today.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
So, if you take a look at what changed to prompt this new deal of the "mutual retreat", Joe Biden has won and it is not clear that China will be his focus in the next year. Most likely, he will focus internally to fix some of the problems like Covid and the economy. We are also increasingly seeing the problems of logistics starting to bite on the Indian side. All these point to the need for India to retreat while saving some face. On the Chinese side, there does not seem any change in events that would prompt a change in policy at the border. My guess is that India will unilaterally retreat and China has agreed to provide it the cover. After they retreated, the Indian side will be "outraged" by the fact that the Chinese side still remain at finger 4, but there will be no movement to return since they can't support the logistics. This whole thing will slowly die in the media like it did with near Bhutan.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
What can India offer to the world other than cow milk and tech support?
Read the post just before yours.
China had to retreat because they didn’t have the logistics to supply a prolonged war. This is no longer an issue today.
India keeps claiming that "this isn't 1962." I really hope they overreach so China can show them just how right they are.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
So, if you take a look at what changed to prompt this new deal of the "mutual retreat", Joe Biden has won and it is not clear that China will be his focus in the next year. Most likely, he will focus internally to fix some of the problems like Covid and the economy. We are also increasingly seeing the problems of logistics starting to bite on the Indian side. All these point to the need for India to retreat while saving some face. On the Chinese side, there does not seem any change in events that would prompt a change in policy at the border. My guess is that India will unilaterally retreat and China has agreed to provide it the cover. After they retreated, the Indian side will be "outraged" by the fact that the Chinese side still remain at finger 4, but there will be no movement to return since they can't support the logistics. This whole thing will slowly die in the media like it did with near Bhutan.

With Trump disputing the Biden win and making actual concrete preparatory moves to consolidate his control on the US military, I think China will also be making preparations for a Taiwan scenario in the event the US collapse into internal strife.

The US does not to totally collapse to be too preoccupied to care about China taking back Taiwan. So this is a historic opportunity to end this issue once and for all. I have always said that that is what was holding China back. India is an irrelevant annoying insert in comparison to the prospect of being able to take Taiwan back. China has its eyes on the bigger prize and has no interest to be tied down with a meaningless boarder war with India.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
With Trump disputing the Biden win and making actual concrete preparatory moves to consolidate his control on the US military, I think China will also be making preparations for a Taiwan scenario in the event the US collapse into internal strife.

The US does not to totally collapse to be too preoccupied to care about China taking back Taiwan. So this is a historic opportunity to end this issue once and for all. I have always said that that is what was holding China back. India is an irrelevant annoying insert in comparison to the prospect of being able to take Taiwan back. China has its eyes on the bigger prize and has no interest to be tied down with a meaningless boarder war with India.
I agree it might be a tempting move. I am not certain that this represent the best time to move on Taiwan, for the following reasons,

1. While China should have no problems militarily taking back Taiwan, it would have to pay a price. Sanctions are still possible at this point. There will be a concerted effort to move some of the chips from TSMC to Samsung. A few years down the road, when TSMC annihilates Samsung at the advanced nodes, there would not be a way for Samsung to catch up (all the fab money would have gone to TSMC to 2nm or even blow). In addition, the sanctions would mean even less 5-10 years from now, when China will have 130% economy as the U.S. and no country in their right mind will try to sanction the largest economy in the world.

2. Once the Chinese military surpassed or at least approach the U.S., China can then initiate a series of moves to demonstrate that the U.S. is not coming to the rescue. This would cause Taiwan to surrender without a fight if they feel a fight is imminent. If they go with this strategy, it could take months to playout, with a blockade as the opening shot. This would only be possible once they have a few carrier groups to go toe to toe with the U.S.

3. As their economy surpassed that of the U.S., China can initiate an arms race with the U.S., with Taiwan as a hostage. If the U.S. abandons Taiwan, it could lose other allies like South Korea.

4. At some point, the U.S., may offer to cash in Taiwan for some monetary benefits. It would be much cheaper if China can make a deal with the U.S. on Taiwan.

They can take back Taiwan anytime they want, but 5-10 years from now works better for them.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I agree it might be a tempting move. I am not certain that this represent the best time to move on Taiwan, for the following reasons,

1. While China should have no problems militarily taking back Taiwan, it would have to pay a price. Sanctions are still possible at this point. There will be a concerted effort to move some of the chips from TSMC to Samsung. A few years down the road, when TSMC annihilates Samsung at the advanced nodes, there would not be a way for Samsung to catch up (all the fab money would have gone to TSMC to 2nm or even blow). In addition, the sanctions would mean even less 5-10 years from now, when China will have 130% economy as the U.S. and no country in their right mind will try to sanction the largest economy in the world.

2. Once the Chinese military surpassed or at least approach the U.S., China can then initiate a series of moves to demonstrate that the U.S. is not coming to the rescue. This would cause Taiwan to surrender without a fight if they feel a fight is imminent. If they go with this strategy, it could take months to playout, with a blockade as the opening shot. This would only be possible once they have a few carrier groups to go toe to toe with the U.S.

3. As their economy surpassed that of the U.S., China can initiate an arms race with the U.S., with Taiwan as a hostage. If the U.S. abandons Taiwan, it could lose other allies like South Korea.

4. At some point, the U.S., may offer to cash in Taiwan for some monetary benefits. It would be much cheaper if China can make a deal with the U.S. on Taiwan.

They can take back Taiwan anytime they want, but 5-10 years from now works better for them.

Sanctions will happen, but right now the west simply cannot survive without Chinese industrial output due to Covid shutting down their own economies, and they will need Chinese industrial might to mass produce any vaccine (India biomedical capacity is rather meaningless since it is lacking core key steps and ingredients that they simply cannot hope to make enough volume of to make much use of their existing production capacity without Chinese inputs). As such, any sanctions in the next year or so will be primarily symbolic with minimal teeth.

As HK and Australia have demonstrated to Beijing in no uncertain terms, western brainwashing is powerful enough to counter Chinese economic pull.

Looking at the rabid anti-China hate on display in HK, and the ensuing economic suicide bomb just to hurt China, you have to be the biggest optimist in the world to still think economic inducements would ever be enough to get Taiwan to reunite peacefully.

And as covid19 has proven in the starkest terms, you cannot bank on the good times lasting forever.

Had China actually screwed up its response to Covid and it turned out to actually be China’s Chernobyl event, as the west wet dreamed, Taiwan would have seized that opportunity to declare formal independence while China was weak and in internal chaos with the full backing of the US military.


Taiwan is a dagger forever pressed to China’s throat by the US. Basically America can go to war with China any time it wants while having enough political cover to blame the war on China by simply telling Taiwan to declare independence behind closed doors. The traitors in power in Taiwan will never pass up such an opportunity, and China will have no choice but to invade and America can have its war and pass itself off as the good guy even though they started it all.

As things stand, China and the US are now in direct competition and a new Cold War, that will not change now until one side wins this new Cold War. Trump has stripped away the economic safety net that was previously in place, which offered China a reasonable degree of assurance that America will not actively seek to start a war this way because of the enormous economic pain it would cause America. Thanks to Trump, America has already taken much of that pain, so there is less for them to loose to start a war.

This means that China cannot afford even a moment of weakness, until it wins this cold war, which in itself is by no means guaranteed. In addition, it is now entirely possible that the US might choose to play the Taiwan card and start a war soon, if it looks like they are loosing the new Cold War and that their existing military and economic lead over China is eroding by the day. That’s a lot of pressure and risk to endure for potentially decades to come.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
As such, any sanctions in the next year or so will be primarily symbolic with minimal teeth.
What about sanctions after that?

I agree with the thrust of your argument that economic inducements are insufficient and that this situation will have to be resolved with force or at least the threat of force. But why rush it? America has no hope of slowing China's advancement and may indeed provoke a war out of desperation, but China shouldn't help it along. I think the best course of action is the present one: continue to advance and build up China's military and prepare for war at any moment, but don't initiate it until China is fully ready to beat the US militarily around the world (or at least regions of it relevant to China) and nullify the threat of any economic sanction from any quarter.
 
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