Ladakh Flash Point

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Inst

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But I think this is the basic China-India problem; both China and India are going to be here and as long as China (and it plans to) holds Tibet they're both going to be on the border.

Until the caste system is resolved, any attempts to be friendly with India are going to have the constant sword of Damocles of caste-based politics threatening to torpedo any allies the Chinese cultivate.

Therefore, in Chinese policies vis-a-vis India, China should constantly keep caste and caste revolution in mind. Promoting China among Shudras and others who do not like the Indian caste system is more potent than simply fellating Brahmins, Kshatriya, and other Forward Castes. Hell, as a policy, this is way more potent than trying to promote regional insurgencies because those are merely regional insurgencies. Attacking through the caste system means that China is hitting India's weak spot and by allying with progressive castes, China is on the right side of history.
 
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reservior dogs

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Bright Sword said:
So going by your variable did the "lack of opportunities " naturally exist or were they deliberately denied to a section of the population for 2,500 years?
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I am trying to learn by observation. When I see something that do not agree with my initial theory, I try not to dismiss it out of hand and try to understand the underlying factors that cause it. It is much more difficult to do, but finding the truth requires this spirit.
 
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discspinner

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Inst said:
unknown.png


But I think this is the basic China-India problem; both China and India are going to be here and as long as China (and it plans to) holds Tibet they're both going to be on the border.

Until the caste system is resolved, any attempts to be friendly with India are going to have the constant sword of Damocles of caste-based politics threatening to torpedo any allies the Chinese cultivate.

Therefore, in Chinese policies vis-a-vis India, China should constantly keep caste and caste revolution in mind. Promoting China among Shudras and others who do not like the Indian caste system is more potent than simply fellating Brahmins, Kshatriya, and other Forward Castes. Hell, as a policy, this is way more potent than trying to promote regional insurgencies because those are merely regional insurgencies. Attacking through the caste system means that China is hitting India's weak spot and by allying with progressive castes, China is on the right side of history.
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Think about how you would feel if you see a neighbor stealing somebody's land (which you secretly covet for yourself) next to yours and then starts arguing with you over where the fence between you two ought to be. Are you really inclined to negotiate at all in such circumstance? That is precisely the psyche of the Indian strategic community when it comes to the border dispute with China. Until such time that the idea of Tibet being a part of China is wholly accepted by Indians, there will be constant friction.
 
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Inst

Captain
discspinner said:
Think about how you would feel if you see a neighbor stealing somebody's land (which you secretly covet for yourself) next to yours and then starts arguing with you over where the fence between you two ought to be. Are you really inclined to negotiate at all in such circumstance? That is precisely the psyche of the Indian strategic community when it comes to the border dispute with China. Until such time that the idea of Tibet being a part of China is wholly accepted by Indians, there will be constant friction.
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What I've heard is that Indian policy elites are considered just stupid, which, if you consider how well the Indians ran their country between Independence and now, always seeking to ally with the weaker side (Soviets, and perhaps the Americans on the eve of a dollar implosion), is possibly credible.

The solution I'm proposing is to replace their policy elites. If you look at the last names (which is an indicator of caste) of Indian policy elites, it's all Brahmins and Kshatriyas. If China, instead, piggybacks off caste politics in India and tries to promote Shudra advancement (China has an increased foreign education focus, we can import Shudras, put them in a college prep school to compensate for deficiencies in Indian education systems, then dump them in Beida), we can potentially get a new Indian policy elite, one that might be more friendly to China, and is stable based off caste politics.
 
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Bright Sword

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Inst said:
unknown.png


But I think this is the basic China-India problem; both China and India are going to be here and as long as China (and it plans to) holds Tibet they're both going to be on the border.

Until the caste system is resolved, any attempts to be friendly with India are going to have the constant sword of Damocles of caste-based politics threatening to torpedo any allies the Chinese cultivate.

Therefore, in Chinese policies vis-a-vis India, China should constantly keep caste and caste revolution in mind. Promoting China among Shudras and others who do not like the Indian caste system is more potent than simply fellating Brahmins, Kshatriya, and other Forward Castes. Hell, as a policy, this is way more potent than trying to promote regional insurgencies because those are merely regional insurgencies. Attacking through the caste system means that China is hitting India's weak spot and by allying with progressive castes, China is on the right side of history.
Click to expand...
China has already attempted this via the left wing parties in India in the 50s and 60s. A study of the Communist Parties of India and how the original CPI first splintered into a CPM faction (based on the Sino-Soviet split mirrored in India ) is useful. The CPM splintered again into a Pro-Lin Piao Anti Lin Piao faction. Ultimately in the late 60s there was yet another splinter when the CPM factions split into the dreaded Naxalite groups officially known as CPI ( ML) or Marxist Lennist.
The CPI ( ML) leaders, Charu Majumdar, Azizul Haque, Kanu Sanyal , and Jangal Santhal ( dreaded names ! ) visited Beijing for a conference around 1968-1969.
Today there are a dozen "Naxalite" groups each fighting "casteism, and corporate sector rural exploitation" in its own violent way in every region.
From the MCC ( Maoist Communist Center). IPF ( Indian People's Front), Red Army ( Lal Sena) in Bihar to a dozen separate groups in Western and Central India, the heavily armed Naxalites rule about a third of all the districts in Central, Southern, Eastern and Western India. Ironically all the left wing movements have Brahmins as leaders who are fighting the caste domination of their own brethren.
 
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discspinner

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Bright Sword said:
China has already attempted this via the left wing parties in India in the 50s and 60s. A study of the Communist Parties of India and how the original CPI first splintered into a CPM faction (based on the Sino-Soviet split mirrored in India ) is useful. The CPM splintered again into a Pro-Lin Piao Anti Lin Piao faction. Ultimately in the late 60s there was yet another splinter when the CPM factions split into the dreaded Naxalite groups officially known as CPI ( ML) or Marxist Lennist.
The CPI ( ML) leaders, Charu Majumdar, Azizul Haque, Kanu Sanyal , and Jangal Santhal ( dreaded names ! ) visited Beijing for a conference around 1968-1969.
Today there are a dozen "Naxalite" groups each fighting "casteism, and corporate sector rural exploitation" in its own violent way in every region.
From the MCC ( Maoist Communist Center). IPF ( Indian People's Front), Red Army ( Lal Sena) in Bihar to a dozen separate groups in Western and Central India, the heavily armed Naxalites rule about a third of all the districts in Central, Southern, Eastern and Western India. Ironically all the left wing movements have Brahmins as leaders who are fighting the caste domination of their own brethren.
Click to expand...

What India really needs to go through is a civil war and cultural revolution that eliminates all the rotten historical and religious baggage from the ruling elite. From the ashes may arise a new India with a modern (likely imported) ideology towards governance. No pain no gain.
 
I

Inst

Captain
Bright Sword said:
China has already attempted this via the left wing parties in India in the 50s and 60s. A study of the Communist Parties of India and how the original CPI first splintered into a CPM faction (based on the Sino-Soviet split mirrored in India ) is useful. The CPM splintered again into a Pro-Lin Piao Anti Lin Piao faction. Ultimately in the late 60s there was yet another splinter when the CPM factions split into the dreaded Naxalite groups officially known as CPI ( ML) or Marxist Lennist.
The CPI ( ML) leaders, Charu Majumdar, Azizul Haque, Kanu Sanyal , and Jangal Santhal ( dreaded names ! ) visited Beijing for a conference around 1968-1969.
Today there are a dozen "Naxalite" groups each fighting "casteism, and corporate sector rural exploitation" in its own violent way in every region.
From the MCC ( Maoist Communist Center). IPF ( Indian People's Front), Red Army ( Lal Sena) in Bihar to a dozen separate groups in Western and Central India, the heavily armed Naxalites rule about a third of all the districts in Central, Southern, Eastern and Western India. Ironically all the left wing movements have Brahmins as leaders who are fighting the caste domination of their own brethren.
Click to expand...

I don't see what's the point of not trying again.

China exporting revolution the first time around was half-successful half-unsuccessful depending on the social development of the target country. The second time around, I wouldn't say it's as much trying to export revolution but trying to export modernity.

Because the goals are much more limited, and the aim is simply to piggyback off an existing movement (i.e, provide pro-China elites through exploiting a social inevitability in India), I don't see it ending up in the same flames as the Maoist movement.

Remember, the first phase of revolution in China was merely murdering landlords and intellectuals in a bloodbath of violence. The second phase emphasized social development and reform more, which led to the Chinese economic miracle. IIRC China officially disavows the current Maoist movements in India, so there's ripe ground to replace the Maoists as useless.
 
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