Ladakh Flash Point

Status
Not open for further replies.

PiSigma

"the engineer"
Don't disagree with what you said and I would like to add some more:
1. Arms and ammunition can be produced by the tribals of Darra Adam Khel in Pakistan on the Pak Afghan border ( no Brahmins there ! ). Craftsman can produce complex mechanisms and components, I was referring to innovation coupled with mass production and quality control to reduce cost. In other words assembly line production, This was mastered by Henry Ford in 1907 who in turn was inspired by Remington and other arms manufacturers. The rest of the world, Germany, Japan, Russia, and now China followed suit. A good brass worker can hammer out a cartridge case on a mandrel using a mallet in 30 minutes, a single brass tube extrusion and "necking" machine with dies at 150 strokes a minute will turn out 4500 cases in that much time.
Today manufacturing technology is in rapid transition. Fine blanking presses, stamping presses, orbital forgings, multi-spindle turning stations, multiple spindle rifling stations can turn out parts for assault rifles by the million. These technologies were mastered 120 yesrs back enabling the nations of the world to fight two World Wars. Once the break throughs in rapid 3D metal additive printing are made to churn out parts in higher numbers weapons will become even cheaper. What is required are good engineers to Design for Ease of Manufacturing ( DFEM).
If a nation has the capacity to mass produce a trigger mechanism they can mass produce the components of a printer. Good engineering ability and innovation is needed.
2. On Brahmins in Silicon Valley:
Indians choose careers not because they like the job but where they can make money. So it is not that Brahmins are good in software engineering. They just happen to know there is a demand for those skills and manage and manipulate their entry by crass nepotism. At one time almost all the Brahmins were ending up as Civil Engineers because India was in a infrastructure building phase under what then used to be 5-year plans. There was much under the table money to be made through government contracts so the Brahmins and forward castes were there, Tomorrow if there is a shortage of hair dressers in the USA and one could get an H1-B visa for hair dressers, believe me the Brahmins would end up in the hair salons.
It is simplistic to club all Indian Brahmins as the same. There are deep linguistic chauvinist and cultural divides in India. A Saraswat Brahmin from Maharashtra will hate sharing his office with a Nambiar Brahmin from Kerala. Likewise a Bhardawaj Brahmin from Punjab has little in common with the Iyengar Brahmin of Tamil Nadu ( Known as Tam Brams).
Currently there is a bitter conflict between the Andhra lobby verses the Maratha lobby ( all Brahmins) in Silicon Valley CA. There is also a caste faction with the forward backward divide amongst the Indian communities in Silicon Valley.
3. Racism in India:
Racism is rampant amongst Indians and they have a derogatory terminology for other peoples.
(a) Gora - White man, this is the derogatory term used by Indians for British or Europeans in India but that baggage has been carried over to North America.
(b) Kala : Black or African Americans,
In India there is a passion for light
complexion. The term Kala refers
to dark complexion which is
derogatory.
(c) Chapta - Flat or flat nose, referring to those with Mongoloid features.
(d) Katua - Circumcised or Muslim.
Other names for Muslims;
Sullah, Musla, Mian, Landya, all referring to the circumcised condition.

Anglicized educated Brahmins have derogatory names for their own country men.
"Harry" ( from Bihar); "Shched" Scheduled Caste); Ghoti ( Andhra );
"Bong" ( from Bengal); Southie ( obvious); "Surd" ( Sikh from Punjab). etc.
Churchill's famous statement:
" India is no more a country than Europe "'
Not all engineers are scams, some of which are absolutely brilliant, one of which was a mentor of mine from Mumbai (but he actually grew up in Kuwait). A couple of SMEs in my group are Indian, and they know everything in their field.

When a country gets that big, there will be divisions. India just seems to amplify it with the caste system.
 

P5678

New Member
Registered Member
Programming competitions say nothing about software engineering. I would never hire 95 percent of those top performers in programming competitions. The problems solved at programming competitions are nothing like real life engineering problems. When it comes to actual software engineers, Indians make up a disproportionately large segment of the US workforce, and there is a large variance in their competence and ability. You have a lot of great Indian engineers at even the top US tech firms, and you have a huge number of barely competent Indian engineers filling the ranks of second rate consulting agencies and the IT departments of non-tech firms.
Well, if two fresh graduates from the same college, one is top performer in programming contests and one is not, and IF they ask same salary, I will definitely hire the one who is a top performer in programming contests, no doubt. Experience can be gained through years of work and training, talent, is what it is.
 

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
Interesting CGTN report on the attack:

Not all engineers are scams, some of which are absolutely brilliant, one of which was a mentor of mine from Mumbai (but he actually grew up in Kuwait). A couple of SMEs in my group are Indian, and they know everything in their field.

When a country gets that big, there will be divisions. India just seems to amplify it with the caste system.
Agree, and there are exceptions. Exceptions don't prove the rule.
A good measure is the ultimate result.
Let's do a comparison:
Around 1900 Russia had a corrupt feudal aristocracy that preferred to speak in French and get education abroad in that language while the rest of the peasant population in the nation was denied education even to achieve basic literacy. Most educational institutions even if available were run by the church which was only interested in teaching persons ( male only) to become priests. Russia had around 10-20 % literacy and starvation level existence for 90% of its population. In 1905 Russia was soundly defeated by Japan in a naval and land campaign during which the Russian navy was decimated.
After the Civil War ended around 1921-22, the Soviet Union embarked on a series of language and educational reforms unshackling the school system from the Church. With adult literacy came technically training and there are pictures today of classes being held on the shop floor of factories educating peasants and workers on the technology of manufacturing. During World War 2 there is stirring footage from that era of Russian women manning cranes, and operating lathes and milling machines filling in for the male population fighting on the front for the life of their nation. China went through EXACTLY the same reforms. A Chinese education official will send his/her children to the same school under his/her administration.
India has never had a social revolution.
A Indian education officer will send his son to an exotic Catholic run mission school in Darjeeling while the government run school under his administration serves the poor and disadvantaged Dalit population with appalling unsanitary conditions and teachers with fake degrees. The education official can afford to send his son to that exotic school because he has swindled money from the government school accounts.
Likewise a survey of most Indian cities in an area next to University campuses show a proliferation of "Coaching Centers". The University professors neglect their government paid classes but moonlight in the coaching centers extracting money from those who can afford to pay. They make money from sub-standard text books that they write ( basically copies of Western text books) which they manipulate into "university recommended " text books forcing students to buy these so that they can pocket the royalties.
The names of the affiliated colleges tell which caste runs the college. Colleges are named after caste leaders, deities, and political outfits.
"DAV College " pretty much tells who is running it and which students study there.
From such a rotten system a few exceptions ( from a population of 1.3 billion) do make it to Silicon Valley and impress their colleagues. Meanwhile India cannot develop a universal payment app such as PayTM ( origins of which need no introduction).

India will never be another China or Russia. A Russian engineer will sit and eat with his mechanic and when traveling in China, my driver and I would enter a restaurant and eat together.
Unusual? For India .., YES.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
and there are exceptions. Exceptions don't prove the rule.

I agree that India will never be like Russia or China. It is too simplistic to view the good Indian engineers as exceptions. The situation is much more nuanced. The caste system with little inter-caste marriage means that they are basically distinct groups within a country. The highly exceptional people that make up the elite programmers and engineers are at the extreme right end of the bell curve. If you know how the bell curve works, you will know that after 3 std deviations, the number drops off drastically. A couple more standard deviations beyond that, very few will emerge even from a country as big as 1.2 billion. The fact that Brahmins, with 60 million population, contributed more than half the exceptional individuals, says that this group is pretty smart and the excellent engineers and programmers they provide are not exceptions. I would estimate that they are as smart as the Chinese or Russians. Another group of Indians, the Parsee, are also very intelligent, Some estimate that they are smarter then the Jews. Unfortunately for India, these two groups are small ( the Parsee are estimated to be few hundred thousand strong and dwindling fast) and the smart people are either sucked out to be engineers and programmers for the West or found positions inside India that do not add to their manufacturing capability. The Silicon Valley is a collection of different ethnic groups. We see Indians, Chinese, Russians, Other Europeans, Iranians, Israelis and a few Egyptians. Almost no South American presentation despite the large population base and proximity. No lower to mid castes from India despite the very large population. Very few Africans. The Israelis, despite only 6 million strong, contributed disproportional number of exceptional engineers. Contrast this with the South American contribution with a much larger population and you will see the difference in the two groups. I think you might be able to observe the same pattern in your industry. Within their own countries, you can see the same achievement differences. The Israelis can make jets, design chips, have many software start ups. None of these are observed in Mexico.
 
Last edited:

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
I agree that India will never be like Russia or China. It is too simplistic to view the good Indian engineers as exceptions. The situation is much more nuanced. The caste system with little inter-caste marriage means that they are basically distinct groups within a country. The highly exceptional people that make up the elite programmers and engineers are at the extreme right end of the bell curve. If you know how the bell curve works, you will know that after 3 std deviations, the number drops off drastically. A couple more standard deviations beyond that, very few will emerge even from a country as big as 1.2 billion. The fact that Brahmins, with 60 million population, contributed more than half the exceptional individuals, says that this group is pretty smart and the excellent engineers and programmers they provide are not exceptions. I would estimate that they are as smart as the Chinese or Russians. Another group of Indians, the Parsee, are also very intelligent, Some estimate that they are smarter then the Jews. Unfortunately for India, these two groups are small ( the Parsee are estimated to be few hundred thousand strong and dwindling fast) and the smart people are either sucked out to be engineers and programmers for the West or found positions inside India that do not add to their manufacturing capability. The Silicon Valley is a collection of different ethnic groups. We see Indians, Chinese, Russians, Other Europeans, Iranians, Israelis and a few Egyptians. Almost no South American presentation despite the large population base and proximity. No lower to mid castes from India despite the very large population. Very few Africans. The Israelis, despite only 6 million strong, contributed disproportional number of exceptional engineers. Contrast this with the South American contribution with a much larger population and you will see the difference in the two groups. I think you might be able to observe the same pattern in your industry. Within their own countries, you can see the same achievement differences. The Israelis can make jets, design chips, have many software start ups. None of these are observed in Mexico.
I quoted Russia as an example for a reason. Yes, Brahmins DO make up the vast majority of the intellectual manpower but is that really because they are "special" in some way?
The Tsarist Romanovs or " White Russian " aristocracy made up 90% of the officers in the Tsarist Army, Navy and Airforce in World War 1. Did that make them exceptional as fighting men? Why did Russia suffer a humiliating defeat at the hands of Germany and Austria in World War 1 and signed the treaty of Brest Litovsk surrendering large tracts of territory including Ukraine. Dukes, and Counts in Europe bought their officer's commissions in the Armed Forces.
The position of Brahmins in India is similar but with a big difference. European aristocracy had no religious law's supporting their manipulation and suppression. With the Brahmins a 2500 year tradition coupled to religion and culture ensures their dominance and over-representation. It was by religious diktat and brutal suppression earlier and today it is by fascist manipulation of the Indian political system. The ideology is fascist in essence promoting the concept of a superior race that is destined to rule and dominate under divine law.
Our forum rules prohibit detailed religious discussions but a reference to the way the caste order in India works has been detailed by Dr.Bhim Rao Ambedkar, the person who drafted India's post independence constitution. His writings can be found on the site: ambedkar (dot) org . A particularly important essay is "Riddles of Hinduism "
A search for Laws of Manu will also be educative.
Just a note of caution: Always ask your Brahmin friends their permission before following them into their kitchens in their apartments. The liberal educated ones certainly don't mind but some are offended. It is always good to ask.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
It was by religious diktat and brutal suppression earlier and today it is by fascist manipulation of the Indian political system.

I think a case could be made that the Dalits had been suppressed under the caste system. However, in 2020, it is difficult to argue that the other upper castes were similarly suppressed by the Brahmins. Yet, you still see a huge difference in output of exceptional individuals. It is difficult to make a case in this instance that the caste system is to blamed for the difference.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
aristocracy made up 90% of the officers in the Tsarist Army, Navy and Airforce in World War 1

I think one must be careful to distinguish between the initial promotion of the officers in that era and engineers selection in 2020. The former is by blood and the latter by merit. Similarly, knights were chosen by blood as well. These two don't represent the same things.
 

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think a case could be made that the Dalits had been suppressed under the caste system. However, in 2020, it is difficult to argue that the other upper castes were similarly suppressed by the Brahmins. Yet, you still see a huge difference in output of exceptional individuals. It is difficult to make a case in this instance that the caste system is to blamed for the difference.
It's not the caste system as such because "affirmative action" is supposed to mitigate the effects. It is manipulation of system. Any caste, any person given the right training and opportunities will perform.
Going back to history:
It was assumed that caucasians made the best pilots and persons of African descent or those generally termed as "Orientals" couldn't fly planes and would never make good fighter pilots.
In World War 1 90% pilots were Caucasian. There were pilots from India and maybe a few from French Algeria. World War 2 busted this myth when Japanese and Chinese pilots took on the best. The USA had the segregated Red Tails African American pilots who shot down German jet fighters flying piston engined P-51 fighter planes. The Korean and Vietnam wars showed Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese pilots flying combat sorties and shooting down "caucasian " adversaries. It was assumed South Asians didn't fly planes properly till a PAF pilot shot down an IDF Mirage III with a Syrian Mig 21.
Brahmins are humans like anyone else. Given good education training and opportunities most persons of average intelligence will perform. I had an interesting conversation with a female colleague in China who held both an engineering and business management degree. She was the first person in the family to ever go to a university. Her parents were farm laborers. Her grand parents had both died in the Japanese occupation, Her parents had been raised by relatives as orphans working for their living on farms. Does this happen in India?
Not in the same way. The Chinese school system ensured that she got a good education that matched the standards required for the University. The standards of the University were not lowered for her admission and the firm where she worked did not hire her because she was "disadvantaged " but because she met the requirements. Of course she suffered NO discrimination in her education and her teachers at school did not downgrade her examinations assessment because they could tell from her name what "caste " she belonged to.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top