Ladakh Flash Point

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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Reading up on India right now. India doesn't want to be like China, it wants to be India while simultaneously somehow being better than China.

It's pretty much insane, because you can see how many of their cultural attitudes are equivalent to 1200, 1800, and 1935. That is to say:

-Indians are highly religious; about 8/10 Indians in surveys say that faith is highly important to their lives. On the surface, Indians look very rationalistic and as they don't evangelize, they seem more "reasonable" than believers of Abrahamic religions. But Hinduism, like Judaism and Islam, is an "orthopraxic" religion wherein the religion is defined by observing religious practices. In India proper, there have been Hindu/ex-Hindu rationalists who got the Gandhi treatment (i.e, murdered by an ultra-nationalist).

-Indians are highly nationalistic, i.e, they have a latent belief in the superiority of their culture. It's like Chinese attitudes in 1800s, where the Qing thought they were superior to everyone else and had little interest in the rest of the world. In the Indian case, it's a love-hate relationship with the West, whose technical accomplishments they respect, but think a la Qing Self-Strengthening "Western Science, Indian Essence". The Chinese, on the other hand, are to them rat eaters and while there was opportunity for mutual cultural understanding before 1962, the Indians are too hung up about it to see what they can learn from China beyond stuff like aping SEZ (many of which ended up turning into commercial / residential establishments instead of industrial parks as they were intended) or attempting industrial policy.

-India right now resembles the RoC to a great extent, whereas China's position is now that of Empire of Japan, except that China doesn't have a population shortage as the Japanese did. The Indians, in hewing to their traditional society, also have a relatively corrupt one that isn't delivering economic or development results, and it resembles Chiang Kai-Shek in China. For instance, the Indians like to brag about the "Argumentative Indian" theses as put across by Amartya Sen, but the Chinese were quite argumentative in the RoC era and look where it got them?
A good read that addresses many facts. Among all the negative comments on India in the past few pages, this one is a no nonsense rational take.

India right now resembles a late Qing nation. There is no beating around that bush.
Despite growing to possess much power, China (and Chinese in general) seem to have a firmer feet on ground regarding their aspirations and train of thought. It might be the result of Collective identity that evolved and at the same time coped with the collective trauma and rough experiences of the past (Collapse of empire, humiliation of 100 years and cultural revolution).

Despite being regarded by foreign nations as an authoritarian And communist country ( endowing with PRC the baggage of Stalinist Soviet Union evils), the Chinese people are probably less brainwashed that even certain Western countries. My interactions with them only confirms this. I don't know if it's a widespread thought however - the Chinese I've interacted with proved to be more rational and balanced.Maybe they are pulling a facade? Improbable. Maybe people in the less developed parts of China might be, as foreign critics point - "Brainwashed"? Idk. There is chance though.


What is unique about India is that India also suffered greatly (under the British) but they don't retain that collective emotion as they are too fragmented culturally and ethnically. India has chose to answer that question by using Religion and culture to unite and enforce a collective thought.

Hinduism is probably the worst choice one can make when picking a religion to accomplish that goal. I, to this day, don't even understand what exactly that religion is. It isn't Shinto religion.

It is actually closer to Traditional Chinese folk religions.
Imagine you trying to bring together all the different varieties of traditional Chinese folk religions, find some common elements within and then craft a name and tag for that cluster ( say Qingoism) and then try to unite the country under Qingoism.

Yeah, that's what is with India.
Abrahamic faith are different as they aren't as loosely linked.
 

Inst

Captain
This is really baffling since the ROC equivalent is now invading the Empire of Japan equivalent.

Recall that the EoJ kept on sending ultra-nationalists to provoke the Chinese and get martyred, giving them an excuse to start hostilities.

I wouldn't say that China is actively stirring shit, but it DOES seem to act aggressively when the situation merits.

1962 was the result of the PRC not wanting to fully delimit the border, alongside Indian attempts at aggressive play to "improve" their situation in border negotiations. The Indians overestimated their military preparedness and got thwacked, which caused India to lose its strategic position in the Non-Aligned Movement and ended Nehru's tenure.

In this run, it seems that Zhongnanhai prepared for this; i.e, since January they were upping infrastructure along the border as though to prepare for a major clash.

There seems to be some rationale behind it:

-India in the coronavirus era is seeing a major public health disaster, with India having taken the championship for most new cases per day. Economically, India lost about a quarter of its GDP since last year due to coronavirus. This gives Modi incentive to wag the dog and conduct militarily aggressive actions to distract from the socioeconomic crisis.

-India has refused participation in the BRI and pulled out of RCEP. It has taken a consistent hedging stance that's upset Xi and Indian media has acknowledged this.

-India has begun to ethnically cleanse Kashmir, i.e, they've revoked its unique status barring Hindu migration. Since China for its BRI only has Kashmir to connect it to Pakistan, and Pakistan only controls a northern strip of Kashmir, it puts Chinese BRI links to Pakistan in doubt. In theory, China can avoid Pakistan altogether; i.e, it can connect to Iran via Afghanistan and Tajikistan, but Afghanistan is a war-torn hellhole blocking both Chinese investment into it and Chinese-Tajikistan links in through Afghanistan.

-A decisive PLA defeat of the InA puts credence to China as a military threat. It convinces other countries that the PLA modernization is complete and that it's a force to be reckoned with, i.e, that East Asian countries, within China's sphere of influence, should switch sides from the United States to China. The InA is relatively decrepit compared to the JSDF; it's arguably more capable than the RoC military, but the Taiwanese would get supported by the United States and Japan and turn it into a major battle. India, on the other hand, doesn't have US military bases threatening to intervene.


===

The problem behind the border clash, first, is that the Chinese would take major strategic damage if they did anything between now and election day in the United States, November 3rd. If Biden wins, the US can be assumed to become a more status-quo power, as opposed to one that's recklessly trying to protect its primacy at all costs. If Trump wins, there's nothing left to lose.

Second, for a Kashmir resolution on the border, China would not be able to run occupation by itself and would be better off supporting a Pakistani occupation. Pakistan currently lacks the substantial ATGMs needed to block an Indian armored invasion. Vehicle assets are vulnerable to InAF intervention, but China could potentially knock out the InAF with a sufficiently sized missile barrage.

Once that's handled, the PLAAF can disrupt the InA's use of heavy and armored assets in Kashmir.

The delay here would be three-fold, first, the Pakistani Army needs to be ready to win a third (or is it fourth) Indo-Pakistani war. That means that Pakistan needs ATGMs sufficient to stop Indian armor if India attempts a tank thrust with its 4000 T-72s and T-90S, the latter having decent APS. Second, the Pakistanis need to be ready to occupy Kashmir. Third, the PLARF needs to have enough DF-16s etc tasked for taking out Indian hardened hangars along the border. With a successful hit by PLARF and a follow-up by the PLAAF, the InAF can be neutralized, much to the advantage of the Pakistanis.

Note that the Indians are basically going to run a German-style blitzkrieg into Pakistan if they go in, i.e, their SPG inventories are abysmal. That means the fire support for their armor is going to come from the InAF. If the InAF goes down because of a PLA strike, the Indians no longer have air support for their tank divisions and they'll be hard-pressed to break hardened positions due to the lack of long-range bombardment.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
The EOC has certainly moved westward ( with respect to the incidents that occurred this year 2020).

Except for the Reqin Pass that is.
 

Mohican Master

New Member
Registered Member
The Chinese line after June 15 that includes over 1000 square kilometers of territory that was on the Indian side of the LAC prior to May 2020 ;) ... looks like you guys have accepted that the LAC has effectively moved westward.
That is becaus India is artifically pushing the line towards Aksai Chin. If you look at Google Earth Maps, all the so called Indian points in Depsang such as PP-10 to 13 lie on Chinese sid eof the LAC as marked on Google Earth globally.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Think wisely. No country is going to declare itself aggressor, India will say all its actions within own LAC and China will always say all its actions within own LAC

Enough with these ambiguous rhetorical tactics. They're not gonna work. India has been crying for months about Chinese 'aggression,' so launch your counter-offensive already to take back the land you lost. China still has all that land, and apparently they've even took more. So what has your superpower army done about it?
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
A good read that addresses many facts. Among all the negative comments on India in the past few pages, this one is a no nonsense rational take.

India right now resembles a late Qing nation. There is no beating around that bush.
Despite growing to possess much power, China (and Chinese in general) seem to have a firmer feet on ground regarding their aspirations and train of thought. It might be the result of Collective identity that evolved and at the same time coped with the collective trauma and rough experiences of the past (Collapse of empire, humiliation of 100 years and cultural revolution).

Despite being regarded by foreign nations as an authoritarian And communist country ( endowing with PRC the baggage of Stalinist Soviet Union evils), the Chinese people are probably less brainwashed that even certain Western countries. My interactions with them only confirms this. I don't know if it's a widespread thought however - the Chinese I've interacted with proved to be more rational and balanced.Maybe they are pulling a facade? Improbable. Maybe people in the less developed parts of China might be, as foreign critics point - "Brainwashed"? Idk. There is chance though.


What is unique about India is that India also suffered greatly (under the British) but they don't retain that collective emotion as they are too fragmented culturally and ethnically. India has chose to answer that question by using Religion and culture to unite and enforce a collective thought.

Hinduism is probably the worst choice one can make when picking a religion to accomplish that goal. I, to this day, don't even understand what exactly that religion is. It isn't Shinto religion.

It is actually closer to Traditional Chinese folk religions.
Imagine you trying to bring together all the different varieties of traditional Chinese folk religions, find some common elements within and then craft a name and tag for that cluster ( say Qingoism) and then try to unite the country under Qingoism.

Yeah, that's what is with India.
Abrahamic faith are different as they aren't as loosely linked.

I can tell you don’t go to Chinese forums. There are enough dumb posts to put the YouTube comment section to shame.
 

nugroho

Junior Member
Reading up on India right now. India doesn't want to be like China, it wants to be India while simultaneously somehow being better than China.

It's pretty much insane, because you can see how many of their cultural attitudes are equivalent to 1200, 1800, and 1935. That is to say:

-Indians are highly religious; about 8/10 Indians in surveys say that faith is highly important to their lives. On the surface, Indians look very rationalistic and as they don't evangelize, they seem more "reasonable" than believers of Abrahamic religions. But Hinduism, like Judaism and Islam, is an "orthopraxic" religion wherein the religion is defined by observing religious practices. In India proper, there have been Hindu/ex-Hindu rationalists who got the Gandhi treatment (i.e, murdered by an ultra-nationalist).

-Indians are highly nationalistic, i.e, they have a latent belief in the superiority of their culture. It's like Chinese attitudes in 1800s, where the Qing thought they were superior to everyone else and had little interest in the rest of the world. In the Indian case, it's a love-hate relationship with the West, whose technical accomplishments they respect, but think a la Qing Self-Strengthening "Western Science, Indian Essence". The Chinese, on the other hand, are to them rat eaters and while there was opportunity for mutual cultural understanding before 1962, the Indians are too hung up about it to see what they can learn from China beyond stuff like aping SEZ (many of which ended up turning into commercial / residential establishments instead of industrial parks as they were intended) or attempting industrial policy.

-India right now resembles the RoC to a great extent, whereas China's position is now that of Empire of Japan, except that China doesn't have a population shortage as the Japanese did. The Indians, in hewing to their traditional society, also have a relatively corrupt one that isn't delivering economic or development results, and it resembles Chiang Kai-Shek in China. For instance, the Indians like to brag about the "Argumentative Indian" theses as put across by Amartya Sen, but the Chinese were quite argumentative in the RoC era and look where it got them?
Money oriented corruptors have never been nationalistic, they love money and wealth and not their country
 
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