Ladakh Flash Point

Abominable said:

Yes, just like I said all these articles contradict each other. A rescue mission is pretty related to the victim who drowned.

Why do Indian civilian engineering agencies have military ranks? I'm assuming that's what "Lance naik" is. Isn't the medal he got for military personnel only?

Click to expand...

Most articles indicated that he died while trying to rescue a soldier who had previously fallen in. Both of them died in the same area of Galwan(near the shyok Galwan confluence) That is also what the official at statement is.

The incident you are referring to about the Indian engineering service wasn't even in Lehi, but Kargil district(where there were no standoff points). You are just continuing to confuse yourself while trying to spread conspiracy theories

With successful disengagement at Galwan, Gogra, and Pangong, there is currently no PLA presence at all within the historic Indian perception of the LAC since 1962 at 2020 standoff locations

twineedle said:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

With successful disengagement at Galwan, Gogra, and Pangong, there is currently no PLA presence at all within the historic Indian perception of the LAC since 1962 at 2020 standoff locations

Click to expand...

India lost Aksai Chin.

If we're talking about India proper, not an inch has been lost because not an inch has been contested during this standoff.

If we're talking about disputed land, India lost Aksai Chin in the 1960s.

If we're talking about a subset of the disputed land i.e. the land that's disputed but NOT Aksai Chin, there are some levels of temporary military presence from India and China but none of the positions are permanent positions like Aksai Chin is for example.

Until we receive official word from both sides that a total buffer of that subset disputed has been established, we can only assume both maintain some token temporary positions within.

So essentially this piece of news is the same old Modi narrative. "Not an inch of land has been lost" which has been repeated since 2020. They are simply choosing to focus on India proper and iffy definition of what "presence" means. As far as we know, both sides have some temporary troop positions within the disputed land (that's not Aksai Chin) despite a few buffers India agreed to in exchange for PLA disengagement, these buffers DO NOT encompass the entire disputed land (again, sans Aksai Chin).

Wasn't there yet another India big shot who threatened to take Aksai Chin from China recently?

From this Amit Shah to I can't remember who, maybe Swamy who threatened recently.





Where back in 2019 these big shots vowed to take Aksai Chin from China.



Shah is a big mouth and India failed when they tried in early 2020.

Immediately after the confrontations in early 2020, Modi's government said "not an inch of India has been lost"... well duh lol not an inch was contested from India. Immediately after BJP claimed this, around March onwards, it became clear there were confrontations and then it became clear that PLA took up forward positions along the remaining disputed land. Back then it wasn't clear the causes of the escalations.

Essentially Modi was caught lying about there being nothing happening or going on at the border.

Anyway Indian bhakts are dealt with this way by BJP because they are so easily manipulated and fooled. It's like watching Idiocracy happening in real life. Tell them not an inch of Bharat India has been lost even though none of this had anything to do with Bharat India and was focused on the remaining disputed land. 80% of the legacy disputed land has been won and controlled by China for 60 years. The remaining 20% was the site of confrontations. Something Amit Shah, India's home minister back in 2019 said India would capture (all of India's legacy disputes and claims) and revoked Article 370.

After Modi claimed nothing is going on and not an inch of land lost, it became clear PLA was 4 fingers deep into disputed land, basically taking up all of it at Pangong Lake and had positions and troops that it did not previously have there, along the stretch of the disputed from Galwan valley to Gogra, Hot Springs, Pangong Lake, and then eventually after India opened south of lake areas, also Reqin. So Modi lied unless he's statement can be only taken as commentary on India proper which makes the statement worthless and a clear attempt at semantics.

If we're talking now about only the disputed where neither side has lost anything, then that's news. Does that mean total buffer has been established?! I doubt it... India would lose all access to Aksai Chin if a total buffer is established and it's India that refuses a total buffer because they then lose 80% of the legacy dispute which they continue claiming.

So does that just mean no buffer but troops move off disputed 20%? Or just simply another Indian noise making campaign.

ougoah said:

India lost Aksai Chin.

If we're talking about India proper, not an inch has been lost because not an inch has been contested during this standoff.

If we're talking about disputed land, India lost Aksai Chin in the 1960s.

If we're talking about a subset of the disputed land i.e. the land that's disputed but NOT Aksai Chin, there are some levels of temporary military presence from India and China but none of the positions are permanent positions like Aksai Chin is for example.

Until we receive official word from both sides that a total buffer of that subset disputed has been established, we can only assume both maintain some token temporary positions within.

So essentially this piece of news is the same old Modi narrative. "Not an inch of land has been lost" which has been repeated since 2020. They are simply choosing to focus on India proper and iffy definition of what "presence" means. As far as we know, both sides have some temporary troop positions within the disputed land (that's not Aksai Chin) despite a few buffers India agreed to in exchange for PLA disengagement, these buffers DO NOT encompass the entire disputed land (again, sans Aksai Chin).

Wasn't there yet another India big shot who threatened to take Aksai Chin from China recently?

From this Amit Shah to I can't remember who, maybe Swamy who threatened recently.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Where back in 2019 these big shots vowed to take Aksai Chin from China.

View attachment 86801

Shah is a big mouth and India failed when they tried in early 2020.

Click to expand...

Gen. Naravane was simply saying that there is no PLA presence on the historic Indian perception of the lac in 2020 standoff sites. Obviously there are legacy disputes which can be considered a part of Aksai Chin(Depsang bottleneck) but those predate the current standoff. What exactly is incorrect about Gen. Narravane's statement?

India also had new troops and positions in Galwan, Gogra, Hot Springs, and Rechin La, many of which still remain.

twineedle said:

Gen. Naravane was simply saying that there is no PLA presence on the historic Indian perception of the lac in 2020 standoff sites. Obviously there are legacy disputes which can be considered a part of Aksai Chin(Depsang bottleneck) but those predate the current standoff. What exactly is incorrect about Gen. Narravane's statement?

Click to expand...

Not since disengagement for buffer agreements. That's been the case for a while. I don't know why India finds the need to give weekly announcements on the same thing. There's nothing inaccurate or incorrect. That's like China saying every week that India has not managed to take an inch of Chinese territory and Chinese troops have positions in disputed land.

twineedle said:

India also had new troops and positions in Galwan, Gogra, Hot Springs, and Rechin La, many of which still remain.

Click to expand...

Weird brag if it's a brag because there is mirror Chinese deployment in disputed and with Rechin La (aka Reqin), India is well on India proper and not even within the disputed stretch.

India failed to capture Aksai Chin. India failed to capture remaining 20% dispute. Temporary troops are true for both sides. Buffer for some are settled but not all. India refuses to sign total buffer which makes sense but whatever. India's managed to take gain nothing. In fact further lost Aksai Chin out of all this.

ougoah said:

Not since disengagement for buffer agreements. That's been the case for a while. I don't know why India finds the need to give weekly announcements on the same thing. There's nothing inaccurate or incorrect. That's like China saying every week that India has not managed to take an inch of Chinese territory and Chinese troops have positions in disputed land.



Weird brag if it's a brag because there is mirror Chinese deployment in disputed and with Rechin La (aka Reqin), India is well on India proper and not even within the disputed stretch.

Click to expand...

We have already discussed this. The disputed 20 % extends well beyond the Colombo Line(aka Indian perception of lac, which means India's positions were in disputed territory, while China's weren't, since they were on China's side of the Colombo Line. India officially claims it because it falls within Aksai Chin but recognizes it as being on China's side of the lac, which makes China's side of Rechin La part of the legacy dispute, not remaining dispute. China, however doesn't recognize the Colombo line as the LAC and had enforced a buffer zone between the Colombo line and Chushul(it's 1959 lac) until India violated it in 2020.

This is all moot however, since after disengagement there are no PLA or Indian troops in the Kailash range or the Gogra campgrounds. India still has permanent camps within the remaining dispute in Galwan however

ougoah said:

Not since disengagement for buffer agreements. That's been the case for a while. I don't know why India finds the need to give weekly announcements on the same thing. There's nothing inaccurate or incorrect. That's like China saying every week that India has not managed to take an inch of Chinese territory and Chinese troops have positions in disputed land.



Weird brag if it's a brag because there is mirror Chinese deployment in disputed and with Rechin La (aka Reqin), India is well on India proper and not even within the disputed stretch.

India failed to capture Aksai Chin. India failed to capture remaining 20% dispute. Temporary troops are true for both sides. Buffer for some are settled but not all. India refuses to sign total buffer which makes sense but whatever. India's managed to take gain nothing. In fact further lost Aksai Chin out of all this.

Click to expand...

True, India will not be able to capture Aksai Chin, but China will not be able to achieve it's strategic goal of buffer zones in the disputed areas between the Colombo line and it's 1959 claim. Most of the remaining dispute is actually on the Indian side of the Colombo Line.

twineedle said:

We have already discussed this. The disputed 20 % extends well beyond the Colombo Line(aka Indian perception of lac, which means India's positions were in disputed territory, while China's weren't, since they were on China's side of the Colombo Line. India officially claims it because it falls within Aksai Chin but recognizes it as being on China's side of the lac, which makes China's side of Rechin La part of the legacy dispute, not remaining dispute. China, however doesn't recognize the Colombo line as the LAC and had enforced a buffer zone between the Colombo line and Chushul(it's 1959 lac) until India violated it in 2020.

This is all moot however, since after disengagement there are no PLA or Indian troops in the Kailash range or the Gogra campgrounds. India still has permanent camps within the remaining dispute in Galwan however

Click to expand...

Have PLA forces withdrawn recently?

twineedle said:

We have already discussed this. The disputed 20 % extends well beyond the Colombo Line(aka Indian perception of lac, which means India's positions were in disputed territory, while China's weren't, since they were on China's side of the Colombo Line. India officially claims it because it falls within Aksai Chin but recognizes it as being on China's side of the lac, which makes China's side of Rechin La part of the legacy dispute, not remaining dispute. China, however doesn't recognize the Colombo line as the LAC and had enforced a buffer zone between the Colombo line and Chushul(it's 1959 lac) until India violated it in 2020.

Click to expand...

Yeah I doubt China wants to aggravate beyond the previous (prior to 2019) status quo. You think China attacked the disputed stretch. I think China responded to increased Indian patrols along the disputed stretch and responded with move of greater conviction to India's salami slicing via patrolling. There is evidence for this because India's own General then said India patrolled more and China continued expressing concern on the increased frequency of India's patrolling. India also started building permanent structures within which to be fair to India should be considered in response to China's building of a road to F5.

twineedle said:

This is all moot however, since after disengagement there are no PLA or Indian troops in the Kailash range or the Gogra campgrounds. India still has permanent camps within the remaining dispute in Galwan however

Click to expand...

How do we define permanent camps? I'm defining China's positions in Aksai Chin as permanent. China's positions within the 20% disputed are temporary. India's positions within the 20% I'm defining as temporary as well since they are simply tents and no Indian permanent structures have been erected since 2021's buffer deals.

twineedle said:

True, India will not be able to capture Aksai Chin, but China will not be able to achieve buffer zones in the disputed areas between the Colombo line and it's 1959 claim.

Click to expand...

Yeah I don't think China will capture and control this area between India's perception and China's 1959 claim. That's a given pretty much. No less than India will capture and control Aksai Chin.