Ladakh Flash Point

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Xizor

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So you are saying there is not a buffer zone in Gogra-Hot Springs? That is exactly what I have been saying.
There is a buffer zone. An initial one was created as part of deescalation.

The Indian government Maintains that they have issues in these regions.

Going by your logic ( traditional LAC being few km away from Gogra post), the Indian government doesn't need to have any issues in these regions?

Next time, try to put some effort and create maps of your own.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
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It is impossible to lose land you never controlled

Anyway, this is probably how the Hot springs buffer zone would look like (Buffer zone in gray)

When you've lost 80% of claims and can't manage to win the remaining 20%... it's often said "you can't lose what you never had".
 

Xizor

Captain
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It is impossible to lose land you never controlled

Anyway, this is probably how the Hot springs buffer zone would look like (Buffer zone in gray)
The satellite images showing Chinese posts 1.5 km into the Indian LAC is in disagreement with this map.

Is this your wishlist or actual reality?
If it's the latter, then the satellite images posted earlier has to be assumed out of date.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
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BTW twineedle you lied earlier (one of many) when you said Praveen Swami's map shows China's 1960 claim going through F2. No. It doesn't. It went through F4.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
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Something that is now clear as day (as info builds and the picture clarity forms as time goes on), is somehow being obfuscated by Jai hind internet warriors who desperately want to find a win for India where there is absolutely none.

Many of India's own understand it as it is and say it as it is... often saying it too aggressively to portray China as some evil force here invading India. That's also NOT the case. China hasn't controlled anything more than they did (blue line) and the parts of remaining 20% dispute that China captured (for temporal negotiation bargaining power) was just to show force against what China considered Indian military aggression and attempts to eventually control no man's land. PLA was sent to occupy land here to force India into submitting to China's will which is either to demarcate the line for good so that India cannot claim or set foot in the 80% that China has won. Or to set up this 20% land as buffer. Either is good with China but certainly not giving this 20% dispute remaining to India.
 

Xizor

Captain
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I already said patrol point 19 is behind the red dot at Kongka la in this image, and even provided a possible point to its specific location, which you rejected. And just because Shukla draws a diagram does not make him right. If I drew a map showing the patrol points ten km west of the LAC, would you believe that?

By now, you are proving that you will only discount anyone supporting the Indian narrative, regardless of their evidence or qualifications. Guess you canoot accept the fact that you have no evidence of any buffer zone, which means India is still enforcing its claim line.

Possible?
So you aren't sure?

So where does the other Patrol point 20, 18, etc lie?

Unless you find another map of Patrol points, you can't fix arbitrary points as Patrol points. What credibility do you have?

Bold 2:

So you are saying twineedle > Shukla?

Does any so called qualified Indian source give a different view of Patrol points?
Only Shukla does. So we run with him.
 
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Xizor

Captain
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Simple question. Do you have clear evidence of a buffer zone in place, or China impeding Indian patrols behind the lac in any way? If not you are wrong, and by extension there is no evidence that India isn't patrolling the lac as normal.

Remember, the burden of proof is on the claimant.
Simple question.
Do you accept Ajai Shukla's depiction of Patrol points and LACs?

How can we discuss buffer zones when you don't even agree on that? Or do you want to go round and round regarding this?

Exactly. Seems like you've learnt a good lesson from the Galwan 500m post discussion. You keep referencing "burden of proof". Heh.

I shall reiterate -

Do you accept Ajai Shukla's depiction of PP and LAC (India and China intended)?

If not, do you have another differing map depicting PP and LAC?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
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CCP's intentions and way of working now has not only become 90% clear but it also makes absolutely perfect sense. Every. Single. Move.

India wants remaining 20% and building up to it and doing more patrols. India aggressively attacking China with propaganda and going against past agreements for mutual respect and neutrality at least. India scraps 370 and acts like it's a supa powa when it is super beggar. Indian arrogance is very much unchecked and increased patrol confrontations leading to fights ever since 2011.

China thinks we gotta respond. We need to achieve following main objectives:

1. Further secure Aksai Chin from the increasingly aggressive and arrogant, self assured Indians who may do something silly if their arrogance is left unchecked ... raping Kashmiris and murdering civilians is easy but a normal man does not derive pleasure or arrogance from that. Only SOME Australian special forces murdering Afghani children (but apparently also very systemic in their racism and killing of civilians for fun) and Japanese soldiers of WW2 get a manhood boost from such depravity.

2. Send India and its political elite a message that China is the rock, India is the egg thinking it's Uranium. Let them know that the actions described above are going to be responded to. This would prevent Indians from growing unfounded ideas of being supa dupa and acting as if it has the strength. Since India doesn't want to play diplomacy (1990s to 2015 talks and agreements on good relations), and India wants to act with military like it does in Kashmir, then China will engage with military means as well.

3. Ensure 20% stretch is at least vacated of Indians. This is still not achieved and negotiations surely have China demanding India vacate this stretch of land like they did in Pangong and in return, PLA will disengage wherever it has position west of blue line. This is to become a buffer zone if it cannot become properly demarcated in a way that China feels comfortable - so surely west of blue line but probably a little east of pink dotted.

4. Force India to either demarcate line between pink dotted and blue or make this entire 20% stretch a buffer.

5. These when achieved will totally secure Aksai Chin in a way it simply isn't. If line is demarcated, Indian can not claim Aksai Chin anymore. If it is a buffer, India cannot enter buffer and pose military threats towards Aksai Chin. This also prevents fighting from occurring as Indian patrols will have to be met and "engaged" i.e. hugged and pushed out if they don't leave willingly.

This is why there are Indian and possibly Chinese positions in the 20% still. As Pangong side is a buffer, both sides are talking right? What are they talking about? PLA must have forward positions still because if they didn't why would the US and Indian governments both say that there are ongoing matters to be worked out and with the US clearly saying China is "inside India". And by that they mean the 20% is Indian. It isn't. This is where different parties have different semantics BUT it is fucking easy and clear to understand.

Don't get caught up with US saying that land is Indian. Of course they'll say that. Indians like Shukla and Rahul Gandhi also consider that as India and then much more as well. This 20% is disputed and PLA in inside it to either continue the stand off or until talks result in Indians agreeing to making it a buffer just like on Pangong or to demarcate the line.

Easy as piss to understand.
 
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Xizor

Captain
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I already said I used his points simply for the sake of arguement, not knowing you would shift the discussion from evidence of the buffer zone to the exact location of the patrol points(which are behind the Indian claim line/google lac).

You still ahve not provided any evidence corroborating Shukla, or why detresfa and google are wrong,
or that India's claims did not line with the lac on google maps. You have still provided zero evidence of a buffer zone. In fact, you haven't shown a single image of any Chinese positions other than the post 6km from the lac, which was first constructed decades ago.
Did you even pass school?
You are the one here shifting goalposts.
Won't take any of that.


Detresfa might simply be drawing lines from China's LAC (intended).
Google might be depicting China's LAC.
And the 6 km would be from this LAC.

How can we talk about buffer zone when you don't agree on LAC of India?
This is absurd.

The guy who went with Ajai Shukla's depiction of PP and LAC has took an about turn when he realized that the current situation isn't favorable to the narrative he supports.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Did you even pass school?
You are the one here shifting goalposts.
Won't take any of that.


Detresfa might simply be drawing lines from China's LAC (intended).
Google might be depicting China's LAC.
And the 6 km would be from this LAC.

How can we talk about buffer zone when you don't agree on LAC of India?
This is absurd.

The guy who went with Ajai Shukla's depiction of PP and LAC has took an about turn when he realized that the current situation isn't favorable to the narrative he supports.

90% of the Jai Hind troll guys or the Jai Hind crowd (the serious ones that can actually be reasoned with and do talk reason albeit with A LOT of lying and twisting things and obfuscating meaning and points) have all disappeared from this thread and similar ones because it is clear as day that China won in the past and India can't get the stuff they want from that era. The new era disputes (20% remaining one) is at best for them going to be out of their reach and made into a buffer.

The main thing is India is unable to go to war and India's military knows this and now their politicians know this. Despite PLA occupying the entirety of the pangong side of the 20% which they desperately want at least if they can't get Aksai Chin. Now there is still stand off at Demchok, Gogra HS at least. They still won't shoot and will talk. China wants them to leave 20%, India refuses... hence from Feb's "we will tell everyone what's happening in two days" to now, India is silent because they thought China would disengage but China wants India to leave 20% if China has to disengage. Even with huge numeric and proximity of main forces advantage, a war is too risky for them. It's also not worth it for the 20% remaining.

Hence now you guys are discussing microbes on the leaf of the tree that is a part of the forest lol
 
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