Ladakh Flash Point

ougoah said:

BTW India's side of black top and helmet top, it's half of the hill from the peak, is also Reqin. Indian troops doing photo ops were all within India's side of the established, mutually respected and recognised borderline. There is no dispute here otherwise why would IA stay at the foot of those hills? They don't want to go east of that forward line.

Click to expand...

When did the Indian army say they crossed the line?

ougoah said:

Anyway I'm glad the Jai Hind crowd want to support the CCP's narrative and version of land titles etc lol

Yes yes all this stuff is happening on Chinese side. Indians have clearly gone into China and captured so much of it and forced the PLA to retreat and create buffers in its own territory.

Great.

Click to expand...

Never said that. And are you forgetting that CCP claims beyond the dotted line in Depsang, Hot Springs, Pangong, and Galwan? You have been saying a lot about Indian claims but nothing about Chinese claims.

twineedle said:

The image I posted earlier showed Chinese bases in Depsang since around 2000.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1292100480315740160

In Pangong, Sirjiap is west of the blue line.
And the base 15 km from India's gogra post was also built decades ago.

In Demchok, both India and China have had bases between the dotted and blue lines.

Click to expand...

Where are the alleged Chinese bases on the map in d-atis' tweet? At the northern end of the dispute?



So for 99% of the space between blue line and dotted, there is no Chinese control. But Indian figures have been loudly talking about China taking Depsang (India's side). Perhaps this is why Depsang is mentioned as a point of confrontation.

It seems China has positions where I circled. Indian figures have been mentioning India losing Depsang and it remaining as some point of contention.

As for sirijap, at Pangong, I'm not aware of Chinese build up except that road between F5 and F8. Again this road and whatever PLA built during the year they occupied F4 to F8, doesn't mean F4 to F8 was Chinese controlled between 1962 and 2019. In fact it was quite the opposite. China was always behind F8 but recently built a road from F8 to F5 - sirijap.

twineedle said:

When did the Indian army say they crossed the line?

Never said that. And are you forgetting that CCP claims beyond the dotted line in Depsang, Hot Springs, Pangong, and Galwan? You have been saying a lot about Indian claims but nothing about Chinese claims.

Click to expand...

Chinese said Indians crossed into Chinese Reqin.

Indians celebrated with a video of dancing IA in who knows where but those were connected by observers. In any case, the result of that was "back to normal" and IA camping at the foot of black and helmet tops.

Yeah China in some places claim a little beyond the dotted line. But the Chinese also have offered India to demarcate the border on this disputed land and have offered at least a deal that involved dotted line as border. That would suggest they aren't serious about anything past the dotted line at least and have offered better deals if India were to negotiate a proper demarcation.

ougoah said:

Chinese said Indians crossed into Chinese Reqin.

Indians celebrated with a video of dancing IA in who knows where but those were connected by observers. In any case, the result of that was "back to normal" and IA camping at the foot of black and helmet tops.

Yeah China in some places claim a little beyond the dotted line. But the Chinese also have offered India to demarcate the border on this disputed land and have offered at least a deal that involved dotted line as border. That would suggest they aren't serious about anything past the dotted line at least and have offered better deals if India were to negotiate a proper demarcation.

Click to expand...

When did China ever formally offer the dotted line as a border? If anything India has been claiming that China is refusing to exchange maps of the lac for delineation purposes.
And I sould say CHina claims more than just a little beyond the dotted line, though not as much as India. Though even if China never claimed the entirety of Ladakh(which is debateable) China obviously never recognized Ladakh as India.

Out of the entire stretch between blue and pink dotted, there may be Chinese bases which indicate Chinese control, at the very top end of the entire dispute. And even then, this is a section that approaches a corner that tapers in.

There's also the road I suppose but again that's very recently built. The other "bases" were built in 2010 onwards and the earliest one 2004 is on the very top end, that's basically the blue line.

In any case, I said before, Depsang is considered by India to be unresolved stand off.

That d-atis map does not prove that China has had any real control over the disputed region during status quo era. It had some bases right next to the blue line at the very top end of the dispute at a part of Depsang. That doesn't mean it controlled Gogra or F4 to F8.

In your desparation to find evidence of China losing territory and India gaining, none of that counts. If China has lost anything east of blue line, then yes you're correct. Everything between dotted and blue line is the current dispute and China had no real control over any significant parts of it. China's build a road and got some bases at the tip of dispute at Depsang. shown below.



Red line from F5 to F8 and circle at tip where alleged Chinese bases constructed at 2004 and after 2010 are. Not much control when everything else is east of blue line.

The road was a recent construction and what also set India off towards building up and increasing patrols.

twineedle said:

When did China ever formally offer the dotted line as a border? If anything India has been claiming that China is refusing to exchange maps of the lac for delineation purposes.
And I sould say CHina claims more than just a little beyond the dotted line, though not as much as India. Though even if China never claimed the entirety of Ladakh(which is debateable) China obviously never recognized Ladakh as India.

Click to expand...

1959 offer is at least as good for India as that dotted line as demarcated border.

Right because this region is tricky. Kashmir.

A decent enough outline of 1959 Chinese offer of demarcated line.



Much more favourable for India compared to the dotted pink line. India wants all of Aksai Chin and you know the rest.

It should be noted that the specifics of offers are not clear to the public. So these maps and alleged 1959 offers are not entirely trustworthy. However it is surely at least as good as the dotted pink line... for India that is.

I think the determination to define the area between dotted line and blue line as "Chinese" is needed for some people to make it seem like India has managed an upper hand in anything. Defining the previous status as Chinese territory makes the current situation seem better for India because it is a buffer zone. Therefore the buffer zone is made out of "Chinese territory". To support this, a road recently build by China within this disputed land and some Chinese bases at the top corner of it means China controlled all of it... therefore Chinese territory and therefore India won because buffer is in Chinese territory. You can never argue a win against those who can only have verbal and imaginary victories.

But the facts and evidence are clear as day to all those who want to see and make up their own minds.

Okay... call it Chinese territory. India managed to create a buffer out of Chinese territory. India won.

I

ougoah said:

A decent enough outline of 1959 Chinese offer of demarcated line.

View attachment 70314

Much more favourable for India compared to the dotted pink line. India wants all of Aksai Chin and you know the rest.

It should be noted that the specifics of offers are not clear to the public. So these maps and alleged 1959 offers are not entirely trustworthy. However it is surely at least as good as the dotted pink line... for India that is.

Click to expand...

I highly doubt China offered that line to India after 1959. And there are multiple sources for China's claims.

Shows China claiming the entire valley and up to around finger 2.


The CIA map is fascinating, it shows the lac during the 60s far west of what it is today.

ougoah said:

I think the determination to define the area between dotted line and blue line as "Chinese" is needed for some people to make it seem like India has managed an upper hand in anything. Defining the previous status as Chinese territory makes the current situation seem better for India because it is a buffer zone. Therefore the buffer zone is made out of "Chinese territory". To support this, a road recently build by China within this disputed land and some Chinese bases at the top corner of it means China controlled all of it... therefore Chinese territory and therefore India won because buffer is in Chinese territory. You can never argue a win against those who can only have verbal and imaginary victories.

But the facts and evidence are clear as day to all those who want to see and make up their own minds.

Okay... call it Chinese territory. India managed to create a buffer out of Chinese territory. India won.

Click to expand...

So by your logic, the buffer zone never included Indian territory, just Indian claimed territory. That goes against several preconceived narratives here.