Ladakh Flash Point

ougoah · Mar 24, 2021

The contentious position you both are arguing over is on that map where the red dot labeled as Kongka La but to the west of that correct? So how is this Chinese territory? The Indians aren't close to the PLA camp there shown by that dot (very close to it) and the Indians certainly are not east of that.

Reminder that these points are already forward positions. India lost everything from Haji Langar to Spanggur Tso on that map... the right most dotted line where it basically maintain claims to.

When Jai Hinds talk about China losing territory, by the same logic and line of thinking, India has lost FAR more.

twineedle · Mar 24, 2021

ougoah said:
Include Chinese territory? None of this is remotely close to Chinese territory my man.

By that logic I could call Chinese bases in Aksai Chin being on Indian territory of which China's won and controlled for decades.

The points you two are arguing about is between the blue line and the pink dotted line. That's a best for India, the very edge of newer Chinese territory.

When did I say anything about points in Chinese territory? I specifically said there are no differing perceptions in gogra like there are in hot springs. It is SHukla who claims otherwise.

I specifically said that pp19 is BEHIND the red dot at Kongka. Shukla is claiming it is several km east of teh red dot. That seems to be the main disagreement between xsizor, who believes Shukla, and I.

ougoah · Mar 24, 2021

twineedle said:
When did I say anything about points in Chinese territory? I specifically said there are no differing perceptions in gogra like there are in hot springs. It is SHukla who claims otherwise.

I specifically said that pp19 is BEHIND the red dot at Kongka. Shukla is claiming it is several km east of teh red dot. That seems to be the main disagreement between xsizor, who believes Shukla, and I.

For example here

"And once again, even if there is a buffer zone, and there will likely be one if/when disengagement is completed, that buffer zone will include Chinese territory like the ones at Pangong and Galwan did, simply because of how close the pps are to the lac. That is simple logic."

And multiple times in the past you present the situation as if India's managed to capture Chinese territory.

Chinese territory like the one at Pangong? Um since when was F4 to F8 Chinese territory? I guess the CPC likes hearing that.

twineedle · Mar 24, 2021

ougoah said:
This is what I question and definitely up for debate since facts are so far and few between.

I think there are parts between dotted and blue that was more controlled by China i.e. Gogra and parts that were more controlled by India - Depsang (beyond blue line) and parts that were just contested by both - Pangong.

China built a road recently on Pangong stretch between F4 and F8 but it was met with opposition and attempts at mirror build up by India.

No idea about Demchok.

Fair enough. Though China has had posts and infrastructure in the area between the dotted line and the blue line for decades, which would indicate the areas being effectively under Chinese control, even if India did challenge that. Then again, China also challenged Indian buildup in areas west of the dotted lines it claims, but does not control, even as recently as 2020.

And when did India ever control depsang? China has had posts between the dotted and blue lines for decades. When it comes to tactical ops like patrolling, India has been at a disadvantage there because of having to go through the bottleneck.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1292100480315740160

For reference, China claims past the dotted line there up to burtse.

As for demchok, it seems India controls roughly the area west of Demchok and South of the Indus. I think the recent video was taken slightly south of the indus north of Koyul.

twineedle · Mar 24, 2021

ougoah said:
For example here

"And once again, even if there is a buffer zone, and there will likely be one if/when disengagement is completed, that buffer zone will include Chinese territory like the ones at Pangong and Galwan did, simply because of how close the pps are to the lac. That is simple logic."

And multiple times in the past you present the situation as if India's managed to capture Chinese territory.

Chinese territory like the one at Pangong? Um since when was F4 to F8 Chinese territory? I guess the CPC likes hearing that

So are you saying you do not think a buffer zone will be created on both sides of the lac, like at Galwan and pangong? And when did I say India captured Chinese territory? I am simply countering the claim that India lost territory. Ann I am talking about the lac here, not claims by both sides. At Gogra, there is no differing perceptions.

ougoah · Mar 24, 2021

All buffers would be set in still disputed territory at worst for China.

Pangong buffer was set beyond the blue line. Chinese forces never really controlled beyond F8 and while they built a road recently, that road doesn't mean it's Chinese territory. If India surrenders that easily and want to call it Chinese territory, the CPC would certainly welcome that.

Everything happening is between the blue line and the pink dotted one. Everything on India's side of the blue line China wants India to not patrol. Everything behind the blue line has been under Chinese control and while India still claim them, they have been like this since the end of the war.

You can call it whatever you want but China's taken steps beyond the blue line in response to India's increased patrolling of the space between the blue and pink dotted line. This area China still claims and at least would prefer India to have little to no presence in.

India wants everything to the right most dotted line on that map. It's lost 80% or so of the entire dispute.

twineedle · Mar 24, 2021

ougoah said:
All buffers would be set in still disputed territory at worst for China.

Pangong buffer was set beyond the blue line. Chinese forces never really controlled beyond F8 and while they built a road recently, that road doesn't mean it's Chinese territory. If India surrenders that easily and want to call it Chinese territory, the CPC would certainly welcome that.

Everything happening is between the blue line and the pink dotted one. Everything on India's side of the blue line China wants India to not patrol. Everything behind the blue line has been under Chinese control and while India still claim them, they have been like this since the end of the war.

You can call it whatever you want but China's taken steps beyond the blue line in response to India's increased patrolling of the space between the blue and pink dotted line. This area China still claims and at least would prefer India to have little to no presence in.

India wants everything to the right most dotted line on that map. It's lost 80% or so of the entire dispute.

The area between the dotted line and and the blue line is still on the chinese side of the 1962 lac(dotted line) Are you saying India controlled areas there?

ougoah · Mar 24, 2021

twineedle said:
Fair enough. Though China has had posts and infrastructure in the area between the dotted line and the blue line for decades, which would indicate the areas being effectively under Chinese control, even if India did challenge that. Then again, China also challenged Indian buildup in areas west of the dotted lines it claims, but does not control, even as recently as 2020.

And when did India ever control depsang? China has had posts between the dotted and blue lines for decades. When it comes to tactical ops like patrolling, India has been at a disadvantage there because of having to go through the bottleneck.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1292100480315740160

For reference, China claims past the dotted line there up to burtse.

As for demchok, it seems India controls roughly the area west of Demchok and South of the Indus. I think the recent video was taken slightly south of the indus north of Koyul.

Where are these Chinese posts between dotted line and blue line that have been there for decades? I'm only aware of ones from this standoff where China took steps into that remaining disputed stretch.

China never controlled Depsang plains area. That's even hinted at on that map where the blue is rather far from Depsang and Indian old patrols (prior to 1962) went WELL east of blue line and into Aksai Chin. If China controls Depsang, that would be a recent development and the stuff lamented by some high profile Indian commentators. I'm not sure what's actually going on wrt Depsang.

twineedle · Mar 24, 2021

ougoah said:
Where are these Chinese posts between dotted line and blue line that have been there for decades? I'm only aware of ones from this standoff where China took steps into that remaining disputed stretch.

China never controlled Depsang plains area. That's even hinted at on that map where the blue is rather far from Depsang and Indian old patrols (prior to 1962) went WELL east of blue line and into Aksai Chin. If China controls Depsang, that would be a recent development and the stuff lamented by some high profile Indian commentators. I'm not sure what's actually going on wrt Depsang.

Yes India patrolled almost to the end of Aksai Chin prior to 1962. After the war China had a pretty big presence in the plains. Most of the depsang plains are actually on the Chinese side of the dotted line.

ougoah · Mar 24, 2021

twineedle said:
So are you saying you do not think a buffer zone will be created on both sides of the lac, like at Galwan and pangong? And when did I say India captured Chinese territory? I am simply countering the claim that India lost territory. Ann I am talking about the lac here, not claims by both sides. At Gogra, there is no differing perceptions.

I don't know if India lost territory. That depends on the details which India isn't giving even though it promised to give statements back in mid Feb.

China certainly hasn't lost territory. Nothing east of blue line has been taken or even temporarily occupied by India not even for negotation. The Indian intrusion into Reqin yielded no return in negotiation. If it did, disengagement at Pangong would not require India to go behind F3 and stay behind F3. Because it would be PLA disengagement from F4 in return for Chinese territory.

Neither side claims that India maintained control of the area the IA intruded into. China made a fuss when it happened and then quickly stopped while leaks confirm IA was quickly pushed out.

I don't know what any potential buffer at Gogra will entail. You do not either. The three of us don't know the real situation at Gogra.

Ladakh Flash Point

ougoah

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twineedle

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ougoah

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twineedle

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ougoah

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twineedle

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ougoah

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ougoah

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