Ladakh Flash Point

voyager1 · Mar 9, 2021

ougoah said:
I disagree with what he says here. Politicised is almost of no consequence on the performance of a military if it is structured in certain ways. For instance, China's military has been heavily politicised since the revolution. It just operates in a way that manages to separate the performance of the military with many aspects of politics, perhaps more so than Indian military does but that still remains to be actually concluded.

India's military isn't performing any better or worse than expected from a country of its standing, circumstances, and underlying cultures. Pravin laments India military's capabilities in comparison to first rate militaries who are much more well financed and have access to much more resources and a longer, deeper scientific and industrial establishments. None of these things stay static and with changes, they could change for the better. It is in China's interest to keep India's military progressing at a much slower rate than China's. The difference is that China has no genuine wish to even associate with India or get involved with them. Beyond some disputes the two share, China is overwhelmingly not interested in India, in increasing influence in India or invading it and taking on the huge mess that it is.

India on the other hand would annex neighbours like it did with Goa, Sikkim, and a dozen other smaller neighbours. Not to mention intrude into neighbours land like with Nepal with Bhutan. They will use Hinduism to leverage while doing all that. With China, they will just invade if they had the means to.

India's military issues are their economic and industrial issues.

In contrary i would say that counter to many' people's expectation China is interested in India even more so now after the recent border dispute. China recognises that India in the future (yes i know 2020 India superpower lol) will be extremely strong if it manages to suppress it's serious internal issues.

And thats why China always tries to be on friendly relations with India but not unconditionally. So after all these border disputes between China and India, you can now see that China now is slowly but surely encircling it by utilising the understandable fear of India's neighbours to it. All the countries surrounding it are slowing but surely working on that goal aided by China of course.

That why Modi's foreign policy is now in shambles and is turning left and right to repair India's relations with other countries (being on the quad though will certainly make the US and the EU on a lesser extend help him)

I understand the reasons of some of the things he does are ultimately good for his country but he is another incompetent mini-Trump which is why when he implements his ideas and policies into action so they produce such bad results

hashtagpls · Mar 9, 2021

ougoah said:
India on the other hand would annex neighbours like it did with Goa, Sikkim, and a dozen other smaller neighbours. Not to mention intrude into neighbours land like with Nepal with Bhutan. They will use Hinduism to leverage while doing all that. With China, they will just invade if they had the means to.

India is indeed a security threat to its neighbours and suffice it to say, should be neutralised either via continual low level civil war or outright balkanisation.

Xizor · Mar 9, 2021

ougoah said:
I disagree with what he says here. Politicised is almost of no consequence on the performance of a military if it is structured in certain ways. For instance, China's military has been heavily politicised since the revolution. It just operates in a way that manages to separate the performance of the military with many aspects of politics, perhaps more so than Indian military does but that still remains to be actually concluded.

India's military isn't performing any better or worse than expected from a country of its standing, circumstances, and underlying cultures. Pravin laments India military's capabilities in comparison to first rate militaries who are much more well financed and have access to much more resources and a longer, deeper scientific and industrial establishments.

Well what he is saying is a bit different -

Politicization of Indian Army (I don't know to what extend it does exist) is different from politicization elsewhere. China and PLA doesn't face this problem since it can be said that PLA is fully politicized (it regards the party as the most important entity within China). While the priorities could be questioned (is the Party more important than China?) I think the answer was delivered pretty early (The long March and Civil War) that Party forms the nation. All institutions are below it. Borders and identity below it.

However, for democratic nations, politicization means that the militaries evaluate results for the benefit of politics.

In democracies, the nation is clearly placed above political parties.
In that context, rather than focusing on protecting nation, if the military plans, fights and evaluates with the interest of a political party - it is bound to somewhere somehow sometime diverge from national interest.

Sawnhey points this out with two examples - Balakot and Ladakh.

ansy1968 · Mar 9, 2021

localizer said:
It's less of "hate" and more of a "hater mentality"

Indians' main complaint about China is "why not us? why they get the development?"

@localizer hahaha you nailed it bro, It's like we can speak pretty english why are we poor and they're not....LOL. And the sad part is most of the western world know Indian weak spot which is its fragile national ego and know how to assuage them. You may look at Every western article regarding Chinese progress always include/mentioned the Indians even though their contribution is minimal or non existence. Its harsh for them living an illusion of grandeur and most can't afford to travel to see the world, the very few who had travel can't speak out afraid of being attack by a mob if their view differentiate from the norm. I often visited the BR and I see an Indian member with the name CHOLA who I think live in the US being attack just posting picture of Chinese weapons development. He had to defend himself against his fellow Indian and that particular thread had been close, sigh

, now I don't have my usual dose of laughter and amusement to start my day.

Xizor · Mar 9, 2021

ansy1968 said:
[ I often visited the BR and I see an Indian member with the name CHOLA who I think live in the US being attack just posting picture of Chinese weapons development. He had to defend himself against his fellow Indian and that particular thread had been close.

Mr Chola had a cloth stuffed into his mouth because he kept posting too many pictures of shiny new Chinese weapons (fighter jets, Type 055, Y-20 etc) and it got too irritating for the members there. They tagged him as a China propagandist.

ansy1968 · Mar 9, 2021

Xsizor said:
Mr Chola had a cloth stuffed into his mouth because he kept posting too many pictures of shiny new Chinese weapons (fighter jets, Type 055, Y-20 etc) and it got too irritating for the members there. They tagged him as a China propagandist.

@Xsizor I admired him though having to go thru that experience against your own kind is difficult and he stood his ground trying a rational explanation but the mob won't listen, if this is the reality in India, I see no hope for the future.

twineedle · Mar 9, 2021

Xsizor said:
Bold 1: So you've finally settled on
" bu bu but he is a liar"

Good. Why beat around the bush and posture so much? A predictable cop out if there was one. Didn't disappoint.

Bold 2 : Most members do. Which members claimed China controlled? What they claim is China manged to push back India and not merely thwart it when it was offered aggression at the border.

What do you make of India not being able to patrol to points in these regions? Galwan, Gogra, Hot Springs etc.

Bold 3: China has created an agreement with India, for disengagement and buffer zone in the Y junction. That effectively pushes India back. Simple.

Bold 4: So you've finally retracted from your position that China didn't intrude into Hot Springs and Gogra and all is fine.

Improvements. I see progress and
improvement.

now you are jumping to hot springs and gogra? I have already showed explained how Chinese positions in Hot Springs and gogra are across theChinese side but very close, which forced India to do mirror deployments. Hence There is a standoff there, with both sides building up across the lac. India has been trying to get China to pull back its new forward deployments back to permanent bases. Keep in mind that India doesn't claim beyond the lac in Hot Springs gogra,but China does have a differring perspective in one small area. Of course, if you have any hard evidence of China intruding across the lac, I am open.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366248078580195332

As for Galwan, its best we drop it since you are not willing to accept any source that contradicts the single source you gave. But for the record, I do not thik Brig RJS is lying, i just think he is either recalling incorrectly, or the information he gave is out of date.

These up to date images show it all

twineedle · Mar 9, 2021

ougoah said:
But the dumb as street shit Jai Hinds will only be able to see the one step back by PLA and ignore that their own military agreed and has already taken one step back themselves. At worst for China this is a neutral balance with the final result in favour for China because India now will not patrol F3 and beyond.

They will also fail to see the entire history and wider context which gives the actual win to China so convincingly it is simply too obvious to any neutral observer. Even their freaking government and military tacitly admit to this while they continue to present some Modi supa dupa winner image. It's so pathetic this is a traditional loser who just suffered one its greatest losses and humiliations but crying victory because it got thrown a half eaten meal in commiseration in return for a heavy price. But only presenting the pricey half eaten meal as if it is a deluxe free buffet. It's hilarious if it weren't so annoying that some Jai Hinds still insist on twisting truth, ignoring full picture, and spamming with random tweets from June 2020 of satellite images showing two distinctively forward position points.

You yourself admitted India did not lose any territory it previously controlled. So how is this a "great loss and humiliation." I can understand saying that about 1962, when India actually lost teritory, but while it is debateable as to how much India previously patrolled the buffer zone, the major conflict sectors(Galwan and Pangong) are back to status quo ante before 2020 in terms of deployments. China took two steps forward and two steps backward. But if you consider that a victory, I guess that is your right, even though i don't see how China won anything substantial, since India still patrols and occupies parts of Galwan, pangong, gogra, and even depsang it claims and builds infrastructure there.

And China held territory a few hundred meters on the Indian side of the lac for about 20 days. Big win.

1000 pgs in and nobody here has provided evidence of China permanently occupying previously Indian controlled territory, much less 1000 km2, And if you say India is the aggressor, I guess that is a fair arguement to make, but China's by expanding its claims to all of Galwan, finger 2, and parts of gogra, among other sectors, I think there is more evidence that China initiated the standoff. Of course i know that is disputed. But if it was china that initiated, India mostly maintaining the status quo and not giving up any territory it previously controlled can be considered a favorable outcome.

Xizor · Mar 9, 2021

twineedle said:
now you are jumping to hot springs and gogra? I have already showed explained how Chinese positions in Hot Springs and gogra are across theChinese side but very close, which forced India to do mirror deployments. Hence There is a standoff there, with both sides building up across the lac. India has been trying to get China to pull back its new forward deployments back to permanent bases. Keep in mind that India doesn't claim beyond the lac in Hot Springs gogra,but China does have a differring perspective in one small area. Of course, if you have any hard evidence of China intruding across the lac, I am open.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366248078580195332

As for Galwan, its best we drop it since you are not willing to accept any source that contradicts the single source you gave. But for the record, I do not thik Brig RJS is lying, i just think he is either recalling incorrectly, or the information he gave is out of date.

These up to date images show it all

Bold 1: Wrong. You are backtracking from your positions regarding those regions.

Bold 2: Evidence is Indian government admitting not being able to patrol.

Bold 3: Drop it? The fact is China pushed India LAC to Y junction as well as shift the patrol points. Disproving that source is easy but specific - you've! Not done it yet.

Bold 4: He is recalling it correctly. He goes on record for that along with maps.

Refer previous posts.

Xizor · Mar 9, 2021

twineedle said:
You yourself admitted India did not lose any territory it previously controlled. So how is this a "great loss and humiliation." I can understand saying that about 1962, when India actually lost teritory, but while it is debateable as to how much India previously patrolled the buffer zone, the major conflict sectors(Galwan and Pangong) are back to status quo ante before 2020 in terms of deployments. China took two steps forward and two steps backward. But if you consider that a victory, I guess that is your right, even though i don't see how China won anything substantial, since India still patrols and occupies parts of Galwan, pangong, gogra, and even depsang it claims and builds infrastructure there.

And China held territory a few hundred meters on the Indian side of the lac for about 20 days. Big win.

1000 pgs in and nobody here has provided evidence of China permanently occupying previously Indian controlled territory, much less 1000 km2, And if you say India is the aggressor, I guess that is a fair arguement to make, but China's by expanding its claims to all of Galwan, finger 2, and parts of gogra, among other sectors, I think there is more evidence that China initiated the standoff. Of course i know that is disputed. But if it was china that initiated, India mostly maintaining the status quo and not giving up any territory it previously controlled can be considered a favorable outcome.

Bold 1: Factually wrong.

Bold 2: Good. But that's just deflection. "Glass half empty" line of thought.

Bold 3: Claims by Indian media has Indian evidences to back it up. You defend your Modi-party well but not India.

Bold 4: India's patrol rights to several regions are being infringed by China. Patrols are a way of exerting claims.

Refer previous posts.

Ladakh Flash Point

voyager1

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