Ladakh Flash Point

ougoah said:

But the dumb as street shit Jai Hinds will only be able to see the one step back by PLA and ignore that their own military agreed and has already taken one step back themselves. At worst for China this is a neutral balance with the final result in favour for China because India now will not patrol F3 and beyond.

Of course this is if they observe the agreements.

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Nah, Stalemate = China lose.
India holding territory = China lose
India not being able to resume patrol =China lose
India banning apps =China lose
India defeat in 1962 = China lose
India 20 deaths in Galwan vs 4 for China =China lose
India asking for Quad support = China lose

Whatever, it's always so much losing for China. China is Asho.

Actually the only "firmly" mouthpiece media article is the "Did India just win at LAC" article. Even that one is very timid about presenting a win for India because the truth is far too obviously not an Indian win.

PLA "retreat" came at the condition of IA retreat. It also came at the condition of IA not accessing F3 to F8, something they increasingly performed before PLA came in to put a stop to this.

Let's now remind ourselves that all of this is towards the edges of China claims since the 1950s. This is beyond pathetic of India honestly.

Xsizor said:

Nah, Stalemate = China lose.
India holding territory = China lose
India not being able to resume patrol =China lose
India banning apps =China lose
India defeat in 1962 = China lose
India 20 deaths in Galwan vs 4 for China =China lose
India asking for Quad support = China lose

Whatever, it's always so much losing for China. China is Asho.

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These Jai Hind's thinking actually is literally like if PLA fought all the way into New Delhi and then occupied it for an entire year while Indian military could not repel the PLA, then India negotiates for New Delhi by promising to give China 50% of its annual GDP every year until the end of humanity or the end of India and PLA "retreats", this would be an Jai Hind win because PLA retreated guys vee have Vunn!!!!!

Honestly is it any wonder what the tangible measurable indications of Indian progress is in reality vs "we will be super power by 2012" and "we will be super power by 2020" or the "we will overtake China by 2020 and be second world economy behind USA".

Man this 1000 page thread is still going strong lol. From this whole thread, i consider this as China achieving its strategic goals here and thus withdrawing the PLA.

The only thing i can see from China's side as a downside from all this is "causing" India to see China as an enemy and ultimately India joining the quad which is not much in my opinion as India itself had already chosen this when on 2019 it revoked the special status of Kashmir and from there on all sorts of dominoes fell apart.

voyager1 said:

Man this 1000 page thread is still going strong lol. From this whole thread, i consider this as China achieving its strategic goals here and thus withdrawing the PLA.

The only thing i can see from China's side as a downside from all this is "causing" India to see China as an enemy and ultimately India joining the quad which is not much in my opinion as India itself had already chosen this when on 2019 it revoked the special status of Kashmir and from there on all sorts of dominoes fell apart.

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Absolutely. China needs to watch its back very carefully with India. Any chance they get, they will be flaring up the tensions similar to 2013 to 2019 behaviour but probably many times more extreme. All Indian leaders vocally call China its no.1 "main enemy" now instead of Pakistan. Pakistan showed it a lot of good will and good faith by securing and observing ceasefire agreements in a show to India that the entire Indian Pakistani tension is and was propelled by Indian inability to understand geopolitics and find a way towards peace.

Pakistan could have opened up a second front while India is down but their actions show they are more than happy to make peace and close up the tensions.

An interesting thought experiment is what would India do if it had equal overall capability as China. Equal in every way except mentality and structure is Indian. There is no doubt in my mind that if India had equal or superior firepower and economic/industrial capability as China, it would have gone to war and if they ever achieve such capabilities, they will almost certainly wage invasive war on Pakistan and China under the premise of regaining lost territories. WRT China they will want to capture Tibet.

China may even allow concessions to current disputes like giving India all these Ladakh disputes and Aksai Chin to avoid a war with a peer adversary because these stretches have less strategic and resource value to China than it does India. The power difference is so enormous that India did not even bother before surrendering quietly.

@ougoah @Kaeshmiri

I think he said it right Indian Army is a politicized institution.

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voyager1 said:

Man this 1000 page thread is still going strong lol. From this whole thread, i consider this as China achieving its strategic goals here and thus withdrawing the PLA.

The only thing i can see from China's side as a downside from all this is "causing" India to see China as an enemy and ultimately India joining the quad which is not much in my opinion as India itself had already chosen this when on 2019 it revoked the special status of Kashmir and from there on all sorts of dominoes fell apart.

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Yes. But I object to the notion of strategic goals being achieved. China hasn't clearly defined its strategic goals and we can simply say that it's to defend its territory and borders.

India hated China even before 2020. While it could be said that 1962 was the big event, the border issues has been on burner since China and India started to bind up the country and give shape to its process.

The key event for me would be India granting Asylum to Dalai Lama in 1959.

The following is from the archives of NYT.
Dated April 9,1959.

Xsizor said:

Yes. But I object to the notion of strategic goals being achieved. China hasn't clearly defined its strategic goals and we can simply say that it's to defend its territory and borders.

India hated China even before 2020. While it could be said that 1962 was the big event, the border issues has been on burner since China and India started to bind up the country and give shape to its process.

The key event for me would be India granting Asylum to Dalai Lama in 1959.

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It's less of "hate" and more of a "hater mentality"

Indians' main complaint about China is "why not us? why they get the development?"

ansy1968 said:

@ougoah @Kaeshmiri

I think he said it right Indian Army is a politicized institution.

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I disagree with what he says here. Politicised is almost of no consequence on the performance of a military if it is structured in certain ways. For instance, China's military has been heavily politicised since the revolution. It just operates in a way that manages to separate the performance of the military with many aspects of politics, perhaps more so than Indian military does but that still remains to be actually concluded.

India's military isn't performing any better or worse than expected from a country of its standing, circumstances, and underlying cultures. Pravin laments India military's capabilities in comparison to first rate militaries who are much more well financed and have access to much more resources and a longer, deeper scientific and industrial establishments. None of these things stay static and with changes, they could change for the better. It is in China's interest to keep India's military progressing at a much slower rate than China's. The difference is that China has no genuine wish to even associate with India or get involved with them. Beyond some disputes the two share, China is overwhelmingly not interested in India, in increasing influence in India or invading it and taking on the huge mess that it is.

India on the other hand would annex neighbours like it did with Goa, Sikkim, and a dozen other smaller neighbours. Not to mention intrude into neighbours land like with Nepal with Bhutan. They will use Hinduism to leverage while doing all that. With China, they will just invade if they had the means to.

India's military issues are their economic and industrial issues.

localizer said:

It's less of "hate" and more of a "hater mentality"

Indians' main complaint about China is "why not us? why they get the development?"

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They keep being fed the idea they are a super power and super incredible. Every time a non Indian person online even hints at India being backwards or incompetent in xyz, the butthurt levels from Jai Hind crowd is several levels above the worst from every other nation's chauvinists.

They then fed themselves these lies about super power 2012 2020 etc etc. And the reality doesn't align with their expectations so a lot of heavy self delusion and mental gymnastics get employed. The culture also really not only allows for self delusion and insane levels of wishful thinking, it really encourages and rewards it. Contrast with east asian culture which heavily focuses on the real and deals with dissatisfaction as a way of life or 改善 philosophy. The Indians rather pretend that reality x isn't true and dream y is real instead then find shreds of confirmation bias to verify their bullshit and mislead one another actively... all while failing to appreciate that the beginning to resolving problems starts with identifying the true complete nature of the problem.

Of course plenty of Indians do get it and are actually thoughtful people. The vast majority are just getting their intelligence eroded further with Jai Hind Hindutva nationalism and it weren't spectacular to begin with.