Ladakh Flash Point

And there is only one lac., the positions China reached in 1962. Both sides claim beyond that in certain sectors, but those are nothing but claims. China tried to push the de facto lac westwards in several sectors. However, that did not happen, and China did not "capture" any
territory previously controlled by India. At most, it simply built up more in areas of Depsang it already controlled for decades.


I have still yet to see evidence of that supposed 1000 km captured.

Oh, and some members should at least know China's actual claims. China doesn't just claim up to finger4, it claims beyond it.

twineedle said:

And yes, Brig RJS has always been to the bend, since that has always been pp14. He specifically said it could be 5 km from the mouth. Obviously, he is unsure of the exact distance, which Shukl;a tried to spin to fit his narrative. That is why literally every mainstream indian and non indian source of various leanings, from the wire to CNN to Reuters to India Today to al Jazeera, show thepp14 that has always existed, not the one Shula made up.

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Wrong.
Bold 1: Write coherently. Brig corroborated Ajai Shukla's assessment.

Bold 2 : So now both of them are wrong? Both Ajai Shukla as well as the Border Patrol Commander?

I'm not specifically interested in who first asserted what but since you seem to be insistent - the author and Ajai Shukla, after discussions and preliminary assessment went to RJS who was ready to go on record.

He says -

And the PLA pushed the “new LAC”, into our territory, from the original line which was never disputed.

Conclusions drawn :


The above Is right. Ajai Shukla has strong evidences. You may ask the courts to jail the veteran for tarnishing India's narrative.


2. Original LAC

has been junked. India and China drew a new one at Y junction. Foreign media and sources uses the new one.

twineedle said:

And there is only one lac., the positions China reached in 1962. Both sides claim beyond that in certain sectors, but those are nothing but claims. China tried to push the de facto lac westwards in several sectors. However, that did not happen, and China did not "capture" any
territory previously controlled by India. At most, it simply built up more in areas of Depsang it already controlled for decades.

View attachment 69681
I have still yet to see evidence of that supposed 1000 km captured.

Oh, and some members should at least know China's actual claims. China doesn't just claim up to finger4, it claims beyond it.

Click to expand...

Bold 1: Factually wrong. There is no well defined LAC. Half of these problems wouldn't be here if there was a proper mutually agreed LAC.

Bold 2: And they succeeded in Galwan.

Bold 3: By pushing new LAC they did.


Read previous posts.

I guess some members here do not know the meaning of "de-facto"
And the lac that reputable Indian and non-Indian media sources, analysts, and veterans used is the one that India has always recognized, which runs several hundred meters south of the bend. Google definitely did not change its lines overnight, and since those articles were published before the disengagement took place, why would the use the google lines/Indian claim lines? Because that is the lac that has always existed, and it has remained unchanged despite China's efforts to push it westwards. And the pla is still behind the Shukla claim line, so even that cannot be used to satisfy the India lost territory narrative. The facts on the ground show that the de facto lac is the exact same as it has been since 1962, and before 2020. Nobody has prevented credible evidence that proves otherwise.

And Vinayak Bhat is a former intelligence office who specialized in geospatial intelligence. He definitely knows where the de fato lac and Indian and Chinese claims lie. And just a few dozen pages ago, he was considered reliable. Now, he is following the government narrative. What changed?

Indians trying to get handouts from the Anglos

What this shows is that any Ladakh Agreement is a postponement for the inevitability of a border conflict with India; the Indian Elites have not been sufficiently educated as to the reality of war with China.

The Quad is hoping for a low level conflict like Ukraine in the Himalayas; China should neutralise this threat by promoting separatists within the subcontinent, much as Russia did with the Donbass.

twineedle said:

I guess some members here do not know the meaning of "de-facto"
And the lac that reputable Indian and non-Indian media sources, analysts, and veterans used is the one that India has always recognized, which runs several hundred meters south of the bend. Google definitely did not change its lines overnight, and since those articles were published before the disengagement took place, why would the use the google lines/Indian claim lines? Because that is the lac that has always existed, and it has remained unchanged despite China's efforts to push it westwards. And the pla is still behind the Shukla claim line, so even that cannot be used to satisfy the India lost territory narrative. The facts on the ground show that the de facto lac is the exact same as it has been since 1962, and before 2020. Nobody has prevented credible evidence that proves otherwise.

And Vinayak Bhat is a former intelligence office who specialized in geospatial intelligence. He definitely knows where the de fato lac and Indian and Chinese claims lie. And just a few dozen pages ago, he was considered reliable. Now, he is following the government narrative. What changed?

Click to expand...

Oh please. You are least positioned to strut around with that tone of patronization. It doesn't suit you or your remarks.

2. You confer "reputability" to those you like and those don't. Apparently, a Troop Leader who did Patrols isn't reputable but some think tank or intelligence shill is. Great.

3.Google should be given an official title or award for designating Indian borders. Is it an agency of India. Are you listening to yourself here?

If China allowed Google to operate in China, Google would be drawing the borders very differently.

4.China never pushed westwards of the new LAC. It already did Push the old one out. If Indians do irritate, China might as well push India out entirely.

5. The facts on ground show that in the past soldiers used to go near the old LAC (well past the current one). You may disprove it by the statements of an officer from the same troop denying it. It's so very easy to disprove. Until then, China indeed has made India move back from a position it exercised claims.


6. Nothing changed. You might have to re read.

As explored earlier, Soldiers always support the nation. But there is a difference between government and nation. If the government lies, do you think soldiers (mostly active) would go against it?

For retired soldiers, they are not subservient to this. It's upto them and have a freer hand. Some perceive nation as above the government. Some perceive defending Government as equal to the nation (especially Internationally).

I like how we came to this position from the previous ones about Galwan few weeks ago. Improvement is there.

hashtagpls said:

Indians trying to get handouts from the Anglos

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369252459336581121

What this shows is that any Ladakh Agreement is a postponement for the inevitability of a border conflict with India; the Indian Elites have not been sufficiently educated as to the reality of war with China.

The Quad is hoping for a low level conflict like Ukraine in the Himalayas; China should neutralise this threat by promoting separatists within the subcontinent, much as Russia did with the Donbass.

Click to expand...

But I thought India was a superpower. Even regional powers would hesitate to reach their hands out especially for matters regarding national security.

The truth is - India have the funds and ability to properly address the issues at the border. It just mismanages and wastes it.

Those that can't be resolved by military can be resolved by diplomacy. India doesn't do either properly. I support India's inclusion into Quad. Let more money from these countries flow into India.

twineedle said:

The Indian government has recognized the 1962 status quo as the lac. as shown by this image by the wire(the same outlet pravin sawhney writes for).
Maybe that wasn't the case in the 1970s, when Brig RJS served there. Or perhaps he is just mistaken as to the exact distance from pp14 to the lac.

However, it is the Indian gov. that determines where the LAC is. not Ajai Shukla. And for at least decades, India has recognized the 1962 status quo as the lac, which is also shown on google maps.

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Reposting because this is still relevant.
The lac has remained the same for decades. If RJS is recalling correctly that he was allowed to patrol past the lac, that is a completely different discussion. transgressions by both sides did occur far more frequently by both sides at the time, so it is possible he was authorized to patrol slightly beyond the de facto lac. Who knows. That is one of the problems with using a source with uncertain info dating decades ago.

Anyway, I guess Col. Dinny must be reliable when he says his soldiers never patrolled past finger 3, because he is also retired. Also interesting how according to some, a retired military intel officer has no idea about India's own claims.

twineedle said:

Reposting because this is still relevant.
The lac has remained the same for decades. If RJS is recalling correctly that he was allowed to patrol past the lac, that is a completely different discussion. transgressions by both sides did occur far more frequently by both sides at the time, so it is possible he was authorized to patrol slightly beyond the de facto lac. Who knows. That is one of the problems with using a source with uncertain info dating decades ago.

Anyway, I guess Col. Dinny must be reliable when he says his soldiers never patrolled past finger 3, because he is also retired. Also interesting how according to some, a retired military intel officer has no idea about India's own claims.

Click to expand...

twineedle said:

Between 4-5, probably around the foxhole point of finger 4

Click to expand...

That is from you on this video.

twineedle said:

Reposting because this is still relevant.
The lac has remained the same for decades. If RJS is recalling correctly that he was allowed to patrol past the lac, that is a completely different discussion. transgressions by both sides did occur far more frequently by both sides at the time, so it is possible he was authorized to patrol slightly beyond the de facto lac. Who knows. That is one of the problems with using a source with uncertain info dating decades ago.

Anyway, I guess Col. Dinny must be reliable when he says his soldiers never patrolled past finger 3, because he is also retired. Also interesting how according to some, a retired military intel officer has no idea about India's own claims.

Click to expand...

Whoa.whoa.

Now you are saying RJS is right?
But that he patrolled a few km from the LAC (at Y). That's quite a nice approach to still fetch something for India.

But No. He is referring to the original LAC. The article also posts images.

LAC for RJS is

I know you wouldn't accept it but then again, I will post it for the benefit of others.

This isn't the Y junction LAC.
another point - China's road construction. Past decades stopped few distance short of the above mentioned LAC.

Bold 2: WHO Knows? That Troop Patrol Commander knows. Jail him for lying then
He has given his word and is ready to go on record.


Bold 3: Dinny may or may not lie. Ask Dinny about the time period and other specifics about that statement. It's pretty evident that Indian government is focused on distortion for benefit of domestic audience.