JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[vesicles]

I don't know why people cant digest PAK-China friendship. The Imprecision (Whatever PAK needs can get from Chinese friends) just cant build blindly its proven in the past also. Don't ask me for examples go & do Google.

As far as FC 20 is concerned, initially PAF went for J10As but when Indians move to Rafale, PAF hold their horses & moved towards to J10B. There are rumors that PAF did put some input on for J10Bs.

friendship is built on mutual respect. The comments like "Whatever PAK needs can get from Chinese friends" sounds a lot like China is being taken for granted... Anyone who thinks like this is putting PAK on a high pedestal and looking down on China. Can your friend come to your house and simply take whatever they need? If that happens, you won't be friends for long.

As true friends, PAK should consider China's concern to be a priority. In addition to what PAK needs and how China can suit/accommodate PAK's will, PAK should also respect China's concerns, such as keeping some of its own weapons to itself for a while. Thus, when considering buying certain weapon systems from China, one should not consider such system to be already on a silver platter and desperately waiting for PAK to take it.

When considering buying certain weapon systems from China, the first question anyone should ask should be "would China be willing to let someone else have its advanced technology?" Once this question is answered, then let's move on to "would PAK be interested in buying it?" That is the proper order of things. You can only buy something that is on the market. No one should buy something that its owner does not want to sell, especially so when the owner is your friend.

Let's say you just got a fancy motorcycle and enjoy it very. Your neighbors, on the other hand, are standing by and begin discussing how well the bike would suit their driveway and how cool they would look on the bike. And one of the guys says "well, it's not the best bike in the world, but I don't mind having it for a while... I might need to make some modifications to suit my needs..." All the while you stand there and thinking "wait a minute, who says I'm selling the bike??"

 

[broadsword]

I think there is plenty of mutual respect between Pakistan and China. Pakistan's urgency for any advanced jet is determined more by its geopolitical situation rather than to benefit more from a friendship.

 

[Zahid]

Perhaps some people in Pakistan do indeed take China for granted. But then both countries have gone out of the way to help the other. There is an above average level of give-and-take and confidence in the other party, to say the least.

1. Pakistan was the first country to recognize PRC.

2. Pakistan was the first country to get warning of Indo-China conflict. The secretary to Pakistan's president was approached by Chinese emabassy staff on the night the hostilities started in order to allow Pakistan to take advantage of the situation. Too bad president could not appreciate the position at that time.

3. China provided F-6 aircraft to Pakistan in the wake of post 1965 military sanctions. The first batch or two were provided for FREE.

4. Pakistan was the first serious customer of Chinese goods. It was not just military hardware, but a great range of products including common items, machinery, etc. Trade with Pakistan was important for China before it traded freely with the rest of the world.

5. Pakistan was China's window the the world, when it wanted access during the period of isolation.

I could go on, but you can see that it is an unusual step to provide warplanes for free. It is also unusual to maintain relations with a communist country while being in the opposite camp and risk annoying world powers.

In this equation, for the last decade or two, China has been the more generous partner. If Pakistanis today take China for granted, then really it is only one facet of the relation. The other may well be similar.

So, my Chinese freinds, there really is no need to take offence at how some people sound. Let us talk about JF-17/ FC-1, J10-B, and other military projects. We can discuss such matters elsewhere.

 

[Miragedriver]

I will probable cause a shit storm by making this (re)post since there are some vehement “hard core” JF-17 supporters out there. However, I feel that this needs to be said and talked about. The JF-17 is a necessary aircraft for Pakistan, which has had American embargos and would have difficulty purchasing Russian due to India’s pressures. They had no alternative but to turn to China in development of domestic aircraft (very smart move on their part). Most of the other nations in the world would not have such a difficult problem as this, since they can either purchase American/English, French, or Russian (depending on who is their provided or will provide to them).

Additionally, cheapness is not the be-all requirement even if you’re a 3rd world country. It has to be safe and reliable as well. There would always be questions regarding the China/Pakistan JF-17 plane in terms of that. How about the jamming of those Chinese weapons, radars, etc….. The engines (switching out the RD-93 for the WS-13)? If we are look at just numbers and cheap operational costs that allow you to train more, then there are other options. You can have a few (one squadron) of 1st Tier aircraft and two or three squadrons of 2nd Tier aircraft as a complement.

Granted that it may be a good plane for inexpensive acquisition, and possibly the maintenance (although that remains to be determined). Also granted that a lot of 3rd world countries cannot afford 4++ gen air force. However, if what I read is correct (and please correct me if I'm not) the JF-17 Block 2 is roughly (or approaching) the cost of a Mig-29M/M2 at $us24M.

Also, he JF-17 has to compete with 2nd-hand planes as well. There are probable many 3rd world countries that will be weighing the pros and cons of buying a new design aircraft like the JF-17. Some would prefer getting 2nd-hand F-16s (i.e. Chile) MLU and upgraded with help from Israel, Indonesia and Romania also purchased second hand F-16s or 2nd-hand French Mirages (Peru and Brazil leased 12 Mirage 2000 each) or even second hand F-5E (Brazil), Hungary (leased Gripens) or refurbished Kfirs (Colombia and Ecuador) than buy a “new design” aircraft.

Well what about many African countries that use J-7s or MiG-21s? Uganda and Ethiopia elected to purchase Russian SU-30 mk2s and Su-27s. Additionally, recently Russia has been upgrading SU-27s to be upgraded to KN standards for only $us15M each (plus the cost of the aircraft). UAE is selling their Mirage 2000-9 for less than $30M US. Between brand-new planes such as the FA-50s and Gripen’s and 2nd-hand proven planes such as F-16s, MiG-29M/M2 and Mirage-2000’s.With the exception of Pakistan, and now Sir Lanka, I don't fore see “large” sales for JF-17 in the near future. Maybe some African nation replacing its J-7’s/MiG-21’s. I just see inquiries and talks about negotiations.

 

[Miragedriver]

Please hear me. I’m not saying that this is a bad aircraft, or that it shouldn’t be used. It’s just that there are so many options available to the purchaser of combat aircraft. The aircraft has just come out at a time of open competition, free market (not so much East West block mentality) and surplus aircraft. The JF-17 will have an uphill battle to make sales. Unless it proves itself decisively in combat against one of its competitors and wins.

 

[i.e.]

Please hear me. I’m not saying that this is a bad aircraft, or that it shouldn’t be used. It’s just that there are so many options available to the purchaser of combat aircraft. The aircraft has just come out at a time of open competition, free market (not so much East West block mentality) and surplus aircraft. The JF-17 will have an uphill battle to make sales. Unless it proves itself decisively in combat against one of its competitors and wins.

look at its capabilities. and its competitors

if you want a decent a2a fighter with BVR and missiles. in the pricing range you are looking at (20 million $)

you are either looking at
1) surplus 2nd hand f-16s/f-18s. don't cost alot of money initially (if you can get it for free) but cost a lot later.
2) Grippen, expensive
3) Mig-29, less expensive.

think of it as a cheaper Grippen.

you are right that there is a lot of competition. but think about it, it was a unique requirement of Pakistan airforce who found their F-16s too expensive to be the mainstay and refurbed Mirages and Mig21s not up to the task.

as for Mig-29, yes the upfront cost may be about same, but I can tell you this twin engine is always more expensive then single engine in maintenance.

one thing about refurbed aircraft ... they cost more in maintenance and gives less flight hours, that's almost always the case.

when you buy airplanes now you almost always look at per-hour cost... operators, civilian or military are always drilling down to this single metric.

if JF-17 is what I think it is... its a high maintainability aircraft that can give alot of hours relatively cheap. then its a good buy. (same with grippen, who wants a expensive light fighter!)

same thing with a car, disregard front end sticker, look at life cycle cost.

 

[Miragedriver]

look at its capabilities. and its competitors

if you want a decent a2a fighter with BVR and missiles. in the pricing range you are looking at (20 million $)

you are either looking at
1) surplus 2nd hand f-16s/f-18s. don't cost alot of money initially (if you can get it for free) but cost a lot later.
2) Grippen, expensive
3) Mig-29, less expensive.

think of it as a cheaper Grippen.

Agreed: F-16 has expensive parts and maintenance demands. Used Gripen great buy but not all can afford. Mig-29M/M2 $us25M, Mig-29K $us27M+, Mig-35 $us30M+ . Surplus Mig-29 offer a decent and cheap upgrade. However the light fighter market is currently overcrowded and overpriced (20 million for a Kfir’s paid by Colombia) especially since it has been infiltrated by combat trainers.

 

[broadsword]

F-16 comes with well tried American engines and can be integrated with more variety avionics. That said, JF-17 is targeted at countries that lean not as much to the West.

 

[asif iqbal]

Not so long away India will be fielding a two carrier fleet and theres only one reason why CM-400AKG has been procurred, it's for big ticket items like carriers and destroyers

After all we have a huge array of anti ship missiles what's the need for another class, this class is reserved for carrier deterrence

I would therefore like to see the launching of this missile it's got a huge warhead and would devastate anything it hits

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

F-16 comes with well tried American engines and can be integrated with more variety avionics. That said, JF-17 is targeted at countries that lean not as much to the West.

in other words nations who for what ever reason have been shunned by NATO and can't afford anything in the mig price range so are left to either try and salvage museum prices from the fifties and hope the wings don't fall off or buy JF 17. Basicly its the ultra economy model, the jet equivalent of a entry level Toyota.