JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[AssassinsMace]

Yeah, transfer of technology could mean a lot of things besides the obvious. Take a look at Syria and the FN-6 and HJ-8. I bet China didn't okay the transfer with the country they sold those to in the first place. Just imagine if a FN-6 was used to destroy an aircraft with Chinese embassy personnel on board. How about the angle from the US perspective regarding the FD2000 deal with Turkey. The US doesn't want Chinese nationals integrating it with NATO systems because the exposure might give China useful information. Those things probably fall within the scope of ToT.

 

[chuck731]

Details in the press are sketchy at best and of course the rumors in Latin American forums are rampant. However, from what I have been told (and this is not reliable since my source has been misinformed in the past); The details for signing the production contract between the firm FC-1/JF-17 Chengdu Aircraft Corporation and Argentina Aircraft Factory (FadeA), still have to be finalized.

Negotiations have stalled, in terms of the constraints regarding "technology transfer"; however, they represent the first formal attempt for the co-production of Chinese advanced military aircraft in Latin America.

A license agreement that China is seeking is in the range of $us600m to $us740m however, the Argentine government is only willing to pay $300m to $us450m. As a side note I find it amusing that with all the equipment that China has copied from other nation, that they would be so concerned about "technology transfer",

While discussions are said to be far from over, if realized they will open up a wide availability of Chinese weapon systems to Argentina that include the 100 km-range Luoyang SD-10A (PL-12) active radar-guided beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM) and the very high speed CASIC CM-400AKG anti-ship missile, which has a range of 180-250 km. Argentina is look at producing between 45 to 60 aircraft.

FAdeA officials are hoping for a potential co-production of the FC-1/JF-17. Nonetheless, the discussions are the first formal effort that could lead to the co-production of a modern Chinese fighter in Latin America. FAdeA officials added that the co-produced FC-1 could be called the 'Pulqui-III', recalling FAdeA's Pulqui-II; Latin America's first swept wing jet fighter, which was designed by Germany's Kurt Tank for the government of Juan Peron.

It is probably precisely China's own experience with copying Russian design that made them fearful of their own designs being copied by other countries.

What engine would the argentinian version of FC-1/JF-17 use?

 

[Blitzo]

It is probably precisely China's own experience with copying Russian design that made them fearful of their own designs being copied by other countries.

I somewhat doubt that. No offense to Argentina, but I don't think they have the industry to copy JF-17, and the entire focus of JF-17 is to be a platform that is malleable to the customer's needs, suggesting that AVIC should be pursuing a similar policy of opening up their plane to a customer's modifications (and those were the same limitations which made PLAAF cancel their J-11A kits for a fully indigenous aircraft).

By the sounds of it, Argentina wants to co produce JF-17, probably on a smaller scale than what AVIC set up in Pakistan.
There may be various detailed bits like avionics and datalinking which China is less keen to share, however, and that is probably more of a political concern than an economic one. That is to say, some technologies which Argentina may acquire may also end up in hands China doesn't want. One want to mitigate this is a establishing greater strategic cooperation between the two countries, which I believe the PRC should definitely look into.

 

[i.e.]

I somewhat doubt that. No offense to Argentina, but I don't think they have the industry to copy JF-17, and the entire focus of JF-17 is to be a platform that is malleable to the customer's needs, suggesting that AVIC should be pursuing a similar policy of opening up their plane to a customer's modifications (and those were the same limitations which made PLAAF cancel their J-11A kits for a fully indigenous aircraft).

By the sounds of it, Argentina wants to co produce JF-17, probably on a smaller scale than what AVIC set up in Pakistan.
There may be various detailed bits like avionics and datalinking which China is less keen to share, however, and that is probably more of a political concern than an economic one. That is to say, some technologies which Argentina may acquire may also end up in hands China doesn't want. One want to mitigate this is a establishing greater strategic cooperation between the two countries, which I believe the PRC should definitely look into.

JF-17 can definitely be co-produced in Argentina.

No fancy ovens needed, just good ole fashion metal and rivets.

the biggest headache on the airframe might be the forged components but it can be shipped over by china.

avionics and fc systems wise why set up production line in country if no more than 100 are to be produced? total waste of money that argentina doesn't have.

but it can set up a major overhual and repair shops for various sub systems. even some LRUs. so argentina doesn't have to pack up the airplane and ship them to china everything it wants some major work done.
that would be worth while to sustain those airplanes for years to come.

ditto for engine overall hual shops.

 

[i.e.]

hmmmm, M53 or may be even M88 for Argentina's JF-17?

or some F404 may be?

 

[Zahid]

Makes little sense for Argentina to get JF-17/FC-1 unless they have an assured supply of engines to begin with. Either Argentines would deal with Russia for RD-93 or wait for WS-13. All the testing with any other engine would be pointless for only around 50 (or so) aircraft.

Is there any news about WS-13? Any at all??

 

[Munir]

Zahid Sahib,

It is not the engine that is the issue for Argentina. Atleast that is my opinion. There is NO Russian Mig29 going to compete there so having some more engines and lots of spare part being ordered is something that makes Klimov and Russia happy. Even if the Chinese alternative comes up we still need a generation of testing. I doubt they will go for that risk. I even doubt Pakistan will do that. The only part that is interesting is whether Russia allows the better performance RD93...

What makes Argentina wait is the budget and the fact that we have to see how block 2 will evolve. Though JF17 has many goodies compared to F16a/Mirage2000H or other competitors, the waiting is for a full block 2 variant and a dual seater. PAF was part of developing team so they have enough experience to jump into a single seater... Other nations an use a trainer variant cause they have different setup. And if block 2 gets IFR, IRIS, SD10B dual rack or better radar then they can better wait for a year or two then go for this first version.

I doubt anyone in south America wants US parts. So no US engine!

 

[Miragedriver]

It is probably precisely China's own experience with copying Russian design that made them fearful of their own designs being copied by other countries.

What engine would the argentinian version of FC-1/JF-17 use?

Well the M53 is too long even though the diameter is less than that of the RD_33/93. I hope it will be the M88, but even the RD-33/93 is an improvement in maintenance compared to the ATAR-9

 

[Miragedriver]

Zahid Sahib,

It is not the engine that is the issue for Argentina. Atleast that is my opinion. There is NO Russian Mig29 going to compete there so having some more engines and lots of spare part being ordered is something that makes Klimov and Russia happy. Even if the Chinese alternative comes up we still need a generation of testing. I doubt they will go for that risk. I even doubt Pakistan will do that. The only part that is interesting is whether Russia allows the better performance RD93...

What makes Argentina wait is the budget and the fact that we have to see how block 2 will evolve. Though JF17 has many goodies compared to F16a/Mirage2000H or other competitors, the waiting is for a full block 2 variant and a dual seater. PAF was part of developing team so they have enough experience to jump into a single seater... Other nations an use a trainer variant cause they have different setup. And if block 2 gets IFR, IRIS, SD10B dual rack or better radar then they can better wait for a year or two then go for this first version.

I doubt anyone in south America wants US parts. So no US engine!

Very correct in your assessment.

 

[Miragedriver]

I somewhat doubt that. No offense to Argentina, but I don't think they have the industry to copy JF-17, and the entire focus of JF-17 is to be a platform that is malleable to the customer's needs, suggesting that AVIC should be pursuing a similar policy of opening up their plane to a customer's modifications (and those were the same limitations which made PLAAF cancel their J-11A kits for a fully indigenous aircraft).

By the sounds of it, Argentina wants to co produce JF-17, probably on a smaller scale than what AVIC set up in Pakistan.
There may be various detailed bits like avionics and datalinking which China is less keen to share, however, and that is probably more of a political concern than an economic one. That is to say, some technologies which Argentina may acquire may also end up in hands China doesn't want. One want to mitigate this is a establishing greater strategic cooperation between the two countries, which I believe the PRC should definitely look into.

No offence taken and I agree that the Argentina does not have the capability to copy the JF-17. However I must point out that the Argentine aviation industry (what’s left of it) is very capable and has designed and produce several quality aircraft. With the aircraft industry being founded by German and Italian immigrants, I can very surly tell you that the if the JF-17 is assembled locally it may bring a different and/or higher degree of workmanship to the product.

I also agree with you that China may be concerned that once the current government is replaced with a more even keeled government, that there may be a shift back to western policies and that there may be a leek of Chinese technologies to western espionage.