Japanese ships disrupted Chinese naval exercises

Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

Engineer said:

You went on and on about WWII battle formations yet nothing you have said is applicable here. First, a ship cutting through the middle of a task force from another country doesn't have to be done so in a perfect 90°. It would actually be done in a more parallel fashion, like a car merges into traffic of another lane. Second, Japan ships have interfered with Chinese ships multiple times already, and nothing bad happened so far. This time, Japan expected correctly nothing bad would happen. The whole point from Japan's point-of-view is for provocation purpose. China and Japan are not at war yet, so what you have mentioned above is not even relevant.

Imagine a non-player purposely getting in the way on a basketball court as others are playing. Sure, given the basketball court is opened to the public, the non-player has the rights to be there. However, it is not reasonable for him to be there while others are playing. By testing the line of legality without consideration of margin, Japan is playing a very dangerous game; especially when tension between the two countries is at an all time high.

Click to expand...

one I based my argument not on what happened but on your argument. "Picture a straight line of Chinese ships in formation with a Japanese ship moving from left to right..."
the maneuver I described matched you description, then I gave a possible option as to why one would try and move as close as possible to that formation.
personally I think both sides are guilty as sin of trying to provoke the other. Its called brinksmanship. You see just how far you can push the other side but then let off the pressure until he reciprocates. The Chinese only really started it in the last few decades. Once they started to become a real player in the region they wanted everyone else to know it so they pushed thinking As the biggest dragon in Asia they had every right. But then they were hit back because Asia is a busy place. And though they have more or less pushed the Philippine tiger over, they suddenly found Asia has a second dragon Japan who pushed back now its a sumo match as both sides push to see who gets knocked out of the ring. So china sends drones and "coast guard" to the senkaku so Japan gets real close to Chinese ships. Both sides claim they are in the right well playing dirty.

so we have these stories with china crying woe is me... Well building large garrison bases off the Philippines, and sending drones and fixed wing aircrafts just close enough to need escort. Meanwhile other nations can work out agreements but china has to have what china wants and no one else can be right.

Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

Engineer said:

Like I have said, it probably wasn't a hazard considering gaps between ships can be quite big. The issue is that it is not a reasonable act to cut through the middle someone else task forces, as it is interfering with operational rights of others in international water. I think your response... or lack of shows you are in agreement with regards to being reasonable.

Click to expand...

As I have wrote in my previous post we don't know the details so arguing if it is responsibilities and/or accountability of action is basically meaningless. There is no right of way if the ships were 8,000 meters apart and a ship was to cross paths.
It's always "Devil is in the details".

Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

TerraN_EmpirE said:

one I based my argument not on what happened but on your argument. "Picture a straight line of Chinese ships in formation with a Japanese ship moving from left to right..."
the maneuver I described matched you description, then I gave a possible option as to why one would try and move as close as possible to that formation.

Click to expand...

Your argument is that the situation as described by me cannot happen. Let's assume that what happened was indeed Crossing the Tee. Given that such situations have happened multiple times in wartime already and we are talking about peacetime, it is not impossible to happen. Your argument failed.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

personally I think both sides are guilty as sin of trying to provoke the other. Its called brinksmanship. You see just how far you can push the other side but then let off the pressure until he reciprocates. The Chinese only really started it in the last few decades. Once they started to become a real player in the region they wanted everyone else to know it so they pushed thinking As the biggest dragon in Asia they had every right. But then they were hit back because aids is a busy place. And though they have more or less pushed the Philippine tiger over, they suddenly found Asia has a second dragon Japan who pushed back now its a sumo match as both sides push to see who gets knocked out of the ring. So china sends drones and "coast guard" to the senkaku so Japan gets real close to Chinese ships. Both sides claim they are in the right well playing dirty.

Click to expand...

The only thing that China really started is exercising its rights to be in blue water for the first time since the country is founded. However, US and Japan feels an entitlement that Pacific is theirs and that China's operation should be restrained within the first island chain. Such thinking is even a stated policy from US and Japan so there is no room for denial. Exercising a right is not a form of guilt, so the fault does not lie with China.

China has always remained passive until another country started harassing Chinese vessels. This is true with regards to dispute with Philippines. Likewise, the dispute surrounding Diaoyu islands didn't escalate until Japan started arresting Chinese fishermen. So, China wasn't the one to start anything, aside from protecting its rights for the first time in history.

As for Japan, the country has always sent its ships and aircraft very close to Chinese ships before the whole dispute surrounding Diaoyu islands flared up. Only in the past two years did China send ships and planes to Diaoyu islands, so you got the whole sequence of events reversed. China only began to imitating Japan, and China still has plenty of room to escalate its actions before a parity is reached. Before accusing China of any wrong doing, you should make sure US and Japan are not doing the same thing first.

Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

SamuraiBlue said:

As I have wrote in my previous post we don't know the details so arguing if it is responsibilities and/or accountability of action is basically meaningless. There is no right of way if the ships were 8,000 meters apart and a ship was to cross paths.
It's always "Devil is in the details".

Click to expand...

You are not adding anything new, so see my previous response.

China has now made an official protest. This is equivalent to creating paper trail saying reasonable amount of warnings have been given. So, in the future we can expect China to resort to more forceful actions to defend its rights.

It will be interesting to see US's response. I'm sure US would stand by Japan, although doing so would be detrimental to the concept of freedom of navigation.

No my argument is that if a ship of a nation with so much history of bad blood between its self and another nation were to find its self in a position of facing a formation of military ships from a nation with whom a bad relationship is well known and documented it may be the case that the commander of that ship may panic and assume possible threat.
and that is all please carry on with your defensive posture.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

No my argument is that if a ship of a nation with so much history of bad blood between its self and another nation were to find its self in a position of facing a formation of military ships from a nation with whom a bad relationship is well known and documented it may be the case that the commander of that ship may panic and assume possible threat.

Click to expand...

The Chinese task force didn't go looking for the Japanese ship. The Japanese ship went to the exercise area, looked for then sailed through the middle of Chinese fleet. You are going through such a great length to defend Japan that your arguments are now based in fantasy and ceased relating to reality.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

and that is all please carry on with your defensive posture.

Click to expand...

I suggest you to stop .

Washington should issue a statement along lines of "While the United States is firmly committed to protecting its allies and upholding its defense pact with Japan, we do not recognize the Senkaku Islands as part of Japan sovereignty and will not take a position on the island dispute."

That way, U.S. won't be obligated to join the crazed right wing nationalists in Tokyo and do it without breaking from its defense treaty obligations. After all many of Japan's leaders come from the same families of UN war criminals (that US left in power after WWII, probably due to Soviet fears) who are embolden by the belief that Americans men and women will bleed and die for their little disputed islands and that their only fault in WWII was losing to the War. We don't want Japan to be like Georgia; making a pre-emptive strike b/c it believes it is cornered by "foreign aggression," especially since when Japan has a history of doing that. Otherwise, its a lose/lose situation for the U.S. as Japan is quickly becoming the Israel (more recently Saudi Arabia) of the Asian-Pacific; an ally that is often more trouble than it's worth to protect their (non-American) interests.

Well, as far as this incident is concerned, which is the JMSDF action (whatever it was) with respect to the Chinese exercises, I suggest we hold off on all of the hot rhetoric until we actually know what happened.

There has been no evidence given that the Japanese hazarded any Chinese vessel yet. There has been no evidence that a Japanese Captain sailed his ship recklessly through the middle of an active Chinese formation.

All we know is that the Japanese apparently did not honor whatever zone the Chinese established around their exercises in international waters.

I have no doubt that the JMSDF observed and was seeking to get as much intelligence as possible. I also am willing to bet that the Japanese came to some position that the Chinese were willing to take issue with...probably to try and get the Chinese to utilize more of their sensors and get more intelligence as a result.

I would doubt seriously that any Japanese DDG (specifically DD-107, the Murasame Class destroyer) either hazarded any Chinese vessel, or that it drove recklessly through an active formation (and BTW, short of a photo Op or an official fleet review, it is most likely that the formation was not an in-line formation. Those are not used in at-sea exercises like these. Usually only for official reviews or photo ops).

If the JMSDF vessel hazarded any ship, that would represent an abject provocation and serious warnings and the threat of preventing it in the future would be warranted. If they recklessly sailed through an active formation, short of hazarding any ship, that would still be an harassment.

The Chinese have lodged a complaint. That does not mean in the least that the "next time," they will use force. Let's see if they back up the complaint with actual videos of what happened. If they have videos of any hazarding or actual harassment, let them show them. That will settle exactly what happened.

If they do not, then it was probably something irritating to them, but certainly not a hazard, and probably short of even an harassment...and if that is the case, I seriously doubt that they would ever react to such an incident with force.

Until we know those details, all of us are speculating.

I like to know if any radar illumination occured. That to me is more important than the positioning of the ships. From what I read so far there has been none in this incident however if JMSDF did 'illuminate the bridge' I can see why PLAN got their skivvies in a knot and understandably so.

Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

Engineer said:

It will be interesting to see US's response. I'm sure US would stand by Japan, although doing so would be detrimental to the concept of freedom of navigation.

Click to expand...

Japan is America's vassal state, so we would support it as long as it toes our line. But if Abe and Ishihara think they could drag the US into a war with China by continuously provoking the dragon, then they are dreaming. Facts are most Americans don't know nor care about Diaoyu/Senkaku, and the idea of going to war with a nuclear-armed state over them is unthinkable. The bottom line is if Japan shoots first, then don't bother calling on Uncle Sam to save them.