Japanese ships disrupted Chinese naval exercises

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

You fellows are starting to get out of hand in this thread. Personal attacks, name calling country bashing, endless arguments, flamebait etc...etc..etc.. So I shall close it until about 1900 GMT tomorrow.

In the mean time read SampanViking recent post. This is what the "tone' of your post should look like..


.....and the Great Game is back in East Asia!

All this Argy Bargy does not upset Beijing one jot as it the main relationship upset by it is the US/Japanese one.
China is trying to force open the largest possible wedge between Tokyo and Washington and an ardent nationalist like Abe makes this a far simpler job than it would otherwise be.

Somebody wrote in this thread early on that China needs to build local alliances. These already exist, Russian support for China is a given, ROC shares the same claims as PRC and ROK (certainly under Park) is active in promoting its own disputes against Japan and most likely to make common cause with others.

Japanese moves are a major headache for Washington which needs to engage both Beijing and Moscow to help resolve various existing crisis in Asia and Middle East.
If a real crisis comes, the US will either have to sit on its hands and abandon Japan and by extension lose any meat in the Repivot policy sandwich, or aid Japan and watch its other major FP Investments sink without trace.

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bd popeye super moderator
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Thread open.

1) Abide by the forum rules when posting.

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2) STOP telling moderators how to run this forum. If you have a problem with a post or another member simply report the post or PM any moderator.


bd popeye super moderator.
 
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Engineer

Major
Have you ever heard of Japan protesting during or after a military drill in international waters?
Japan has held various drills both independently and jointly with the US in which all cases Japan announced those military drills in advance to other nations. I can't believe that PLAN had never sent ships at any of those occasions in the past.
So has anyone ever heard of any protests made by Japan against PRC in the past?

There is your answer.

Sending ships to monitor another nation's exercise is not the same as cutting through the middle of a foreign fleet. Your line of argument is like equating the purchase of a gun to the act of murdering someone.

I think those who are blindly defending Japan's need to understand what are rights... or what rights are not. Having rights to be somewhere does not mean one can violate the rights of others being there. For example, everyone can be on public roads, but that does not mean a person can keep on getting in front of others then step on the brakes to provoke others. In this latest spat between China and Japan, Japan is the person who kept on stepping on the brakes.

China has the rights to do exercise in international water without interference. Japan's active interference with the operations of Chinese task force is a violation of China's rights. According to the handbook posted by kwaigonegin, the USN could resort to use of force if faced with the same situation.
Ships and aircraft of other nations are not required to remain outside a declared warning area, but are obliged to refrain from interfering with activities therein. Consequently, ships and aircraft of one nation may operate in a warning area within international waters and airspace declared by another nation, collect intelligence and observe the activities involved, subject to the requirement of due regard for the rights of the declaring nation to use international waters and airspace for such lawful purposes. The declaring nation may take reasonable measures including the use of proportionate force to protect the activities against interference. (See paragraph 4.3.7 for a discussion of the establishment of warning zones during periods of heightened tensions not rising to the level of international armed conflict.)

Japan have pulled similar stunts to China in international water on multiple occasions. China has remained silent before, but this time China has official protested. In other words, future protests from China are not going to involve words.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

Think of pictures with Chinese ships sailing in a single line. Now, think of Japanese ship cutting through the middle of that line from left to right, then from right to left. That's the sort of stunt Japan pulls, all the time. Once, Japan even interfered with a Chinese UNREP exercise by using a ship to "squeeze" Chinese replenishment ship. Forum members who are well-versed with searching in Chinese should look up that incident. In any case, Japanese ship was so aggressive that it ultimately required Chinese commander to send in another frigate to act as a barrier. Anything that requires active response from China is not just a simple monitoring of exercise.
.

okay now, there is something here that needs pointing out. Unlike just about every other form of mobile military gunnery, naval guns, and naval missiles are optimized to fire to the side. The only exception is torpedoes. So if a ship (doesn't matter who's) finds its self in a 90* angle to a naval formation aligned as you described here. Said ship can potentially view themselves under threat. The naval maneuver is called crossing the T. As any ship broadside on to that formation is facing just about every gun in the formation. In the Ruso Japanese war when the Japanese sank the Czars fleet the Japanese crossed the Russian T that is they formed up in a single file line the bows of there ships being at a 90* angle to the incoming Russian fleet there arch of fire overlapping creating a kill zone. Since the introduction of naval gunfire crossing the "T" is the most fundamental of naval tactical principals. Since the only naval class in history to ever have a equal fire power distribution over its entire 360* of turn was the American Monitor class ironclad gun boats of the American civil war and that was because she only had one turret that doubled as the steering house. Out side of that the only other exception to this strategy is submarines.

now I have yet to see what happened in this case. And as such I with hold any judgment. But any ship finding itself in a crossed T has every right to try and get out of that position. getting " to close for comfort" preventing possible engagement by forcing hostile or potentially hostile ships to risk themselves in the attack is a valid possible solution if the commander of that ship feels he is indeed under threat.

think I made that up? I must work k fast. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_T
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Sending ships to monitor another nation's exercise is not the same as cutting through the middle of a foreign fleet. Your line of argument is like equating the purchase of a gun to the act of murdering someone.

China has the rights to do exercise in international water without interference. Japan's active interference with the operations of Chinese task force is a violation of China's rights. According to the handbook posted by kwaigonegin, the USN could resort to use of force if faced with the same situation.
I don't think we know enough about this incident yet to make such broad generalizations and assumptions.

We do not know how close the JMSDF ship came to the PLAN ships. If it was not close enough to represent a navigation hazard, then it was not a provocation that rises to the level you are insinuating.

Observing is one thing. Crossing the line into the exercise area is another, but that does not mean they necessarily hazarded any ship. Cutting across the bow of a ship at close quarters, or running up alongside another vessel at high speed and very close are completely different. Until such time as we know that type of thing happened, I think any talk of using force and firing on another vessel is completely premature.

If the PLAN lodges an official complaint, let them show the video evidence of what the JMSDF did. Until then, as was said about Japan's complaint a few weeks ago, it is just words.
 

Engineer

Major
I don't think we know enough about this incident yet to make such broad generalizations and assumptions.

We do not know how close the JMSDF ship came to the PLAN ships. If it was not close enough to represent a navigation hazard, then it was not a provocation that rises to the level you are insinuating.

Observing is one thing. Crossing the line into the exercise area is another, but that does not mean they necessarily hazarded any ship. Cutting across the bow of a ship at close quarters, or running up alongside another vessel at high speed and very close are completely different. Until such time as we know that type of thing happened, I think any talk of using force and firing on another vessel is completely premature.

If the PLAN lodges an official complaint, let them show the video evidence of what the JMSDF did. Until then, as was said about Japan's complaint a few weeks ago, it is just words.

Well, it probably wasn't a navigation hazard. The gap between ships within a formation is usually big enough to allow another ship to pass through without any hazard. So, from Japanese's point-of-view it wouldn't breach any International Law if no hazard was created. However, it is still an active interference to China's rights to be in international water, in which case China's accusation would also be correct.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

okay now, there is something here that needs pointing out. Unlike just about every other form of mobile military gunnery, naval guns, and naval missiles are optimized to fire to the side. The only exception is torpedoes. So if a ship (doesn't matter who's) finds its self in a 90* angle to a naval formation aligned as you described here. Said ship can potentially view themselves under threat. The naval maneuver is called crossing the T. As any ship broadside on to that formation is facing just about every gun in the formation. In the Ruso Japanese war when the Japanese sank the Czars fleet the Japanese crossed the Russian T that is they formed up in a single file line the bows of there ships being at a 90* angle to the incoming Russian fleet there arch of fire overlapping creating a kill zone. Since the introduction of naval gunfire crossing the "T" is the most fundamental of naval tactical principals. Since the only naval class in history to ever have a equal fire power distribution over its entire 360* of turn was the American Monitor class ironclad gun boats of the American civil war and that was because she only had one turret that doubled as the steering house. Out side of that the only other exception to this strategy is submarines.

now I have yet to see what happened in this case. And as such I with hold any judgment. But any ship finding itself in a crossed T has every right to try and get out of that position. getting " to close for comfort" preventing possible engagement by forcing hostile or potentially hostile ships to risk themselves in the attack is a valid possible solution if the commander of that ship feels he is indeed under threat.

think I made that up? I must work k fast.
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You went on and on about WWII battle formations yet nothing you have said is applicable here. First, a ship cutting through the middle of a task force from another country doesn't have to be done so in a perfect 90°. It would actually be done in a more parallel fashion, like a car merges into traffic of another lane. Second, Japan ships have interfered with Chinese ships multiple times already, and nothing bad happened so far. This time, Japan expected correctly nothing bad would happen. The whole point from Japan's point-of-view is for provocation purpose. China and Japan are not at war yet, so what you have mentioned above is not even relevant.

Imagine a non-player purposely getting in the way on a basketball court as others are playing. Sure, given the basketball court is opened to the public, the non-player has the rights to be there. However, it is not reasonable for him to be there while others are playing. By testing the line of legality without consideration of margin, Japan is playing a very dangerous game; especially when tension between the two countries is at an all time high.
 
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Engineer

Major
Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

All you do is assume. Zero facts.
LAMO! This is entertaining. Your accusation about assumptions is correct, as xywdx already said he was imitating your arguments. This is such a good illustration of
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.

I summarised all that we know in four points. And you come up with basketball courts. I just would like to know what happened there, why Chinese protested and what Japanese did.
What we know is that a Japanese ship went through the middle of Chinese fleet, especially when we considered the fact that Japan has done similar stunts on multiple occasions. The analogy of basketball court summarizes the situation eloquently. Repeating the same question about what happened seems more like an attempt at diverging attention than to address the points raised by this discussion.

Right now we have word against word (but if you accuse someone of doing something you have evidence to prove it). I also bet there will be some photos from the drill like there always are. So maybe something will be among them.
Smack of hypocrisy. When you don't expect Japan to provide any proof for their accusations, you don't have any support to expect the opposite when it comes to China.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

You went on and on about WWII battle formations yet nothing you have said is applicable here. First, a ship cutting through the middle of a task force from another country doesn't have to be done so in a perfect 90°. It would actually be done in a more parallel fashion, like a car merges into traffic of another lane. Second, Japan ships have interfered with Chinese ships multiple times already, and nothing bad happened so far. This time, Japan expected correctly nothing bad would happen. The whole point from Japan's point-of-view is for provocation purpose. China and Japan are not at war yet, so what you have mentioned above is not even relevant.

Imagine a non-player purposely getting in the way on a basketball court as others are playing. Sure, given the basketball court is opened to the public, the non-player has the rights to be there. However, it is not reasonable for him to be there while others are playing. By testing the line of legality without consideration of margin, Japan is playing a very dangerous game; especially when tension between the two countries is at an all time high.

LAMO! This is entertaining. Your accusation about assumptions is correct, as xywdx already said he was imitating your arguments. This is such a good illustration of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.


What we know is that a Japanese ship went through the middle of Chinese fleet, especially when we considered the fact that Japan has done similar stunts on multiple occasions. The analogy of basketball court summarizes the situation eloquently. Repeating the same question about what happened seems more like an attempt at diverging attention than to address the points raised by this discussion.


Smack of hypocrisy. When you don't expect Japan to provide any proof for their accusations, you don't have any support to expect the opposite when it comes to China.

We do not know what really happened so until we do it's pure speculation.
The distance could be 400 m which becomes a hazard to normal navigation, 4,000m which is not a hazard but could be consider a nuisance to disrupt a military drill, 14,000 m which is basically a non-problem or anywhere in between the three distances.
Which can be argued until the cow comes home but until we have some more details it's pretty much meaningless to argue who's fault on what.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: Japanese ships dusrupted chinese naval exercicies

We do not know what really happened so until we do it's pure speculation.
The distance could be 400 m which becomes a hazard to normal navigation, 4,000m which is not a hazard but could be consider a nuisance to disrupt a military drill, 14,000 m which is basically a non-problem or anywhere in between the three distances.
Which can be argued until the cow comes home but until we have some more details it's pretty much meaningless to argue who's fault on what.

Like I have said, it probably wasn't a hazard considering gaps between ships can be quite big. The issue is that it is not a reasonable act to cut through the middle someone else task forces, as it is interfering with operational rights of others in international water. I think your response... or lack of shows you are in agreement with regards to being reasonable.
 
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