Japanese GPS hulabaloo

Gollevainen · May 28, 2007

well first off all, who cares if its a govrenment funded or not? In western world, being govrenment funded doesent mean that you are working in for the military or inteligent agencies. IF the japanese would have done their work at the region in that intention, they would have been
a) from some organisation that actually conducts such operations or b) if they would have hide themselves, the last thing would have been to hide them as Japanese governmental organisation. Sorry guys but the logic that you use to justify your wish that they would have been spyes doesent just work.

If Chinese government had refused to provide higher precision maps, isn't that the end of the issue?

Well if it comes accompanied with strict indication that that precission is the higher that the place can ever get, perhaps then

But we dont know that....but I can assure you that nothing raises the natural "survey instict" better than inaccurate maps.

The GPS receivers they carried, like in Xinjiang, are the military class ones. They can receive the military code and far precise than the regular civilian GPS. Just wonder where they got them for a "civilian purpose survey"?

IS this something you just maded up in your mind, or do you once have a source for such claim? And again Just tell me exactly what they were doing there and with what equipment and I can explain from my own experience in this craft of what were they doing in there.

It looks more like a bunch of scientists doing research... a much a-do about nothing

Well if they were scientist, like geologics or something else, and not professional surveyrs, Its even more likely that the whole case is just matter of accident. They propaply have been in Japan and in other western countries, happily "GPSing" like nothing and assumed that offcourse it can be done in China too....I would have done same mistake over myself if I would have been given the task, and att least I have took few lessons about the craft.

Deleted member 675 · May 28, 2007

Re: New Speacial forces pictures

szbd said:
From where you see the paranoia?

From the first post:

Chinese newspapers run story that Japan is preparing to missile strike on China

nemo · May 28, 2007

Gollevainen said:
well first off all, who cares if its a govrenment funded or not? In western world, being govrenment funded doesent mean that you are working in for the military or inteligent agencies. IF the japanese would have done their work at the region in that intention, they would have been
a) from some organisation that actually conducts such operations or b) if they would have hide themselves, the last thing would have been to hide them as Japanese governmental organisation. Sorry guys but the logic that you use to justify your wish that they would have been spyes doesent just work.

It could be that those surveyers are not intelligence agents themselves, but are duped into do this. Civilian won't dream of doing this by themselves unless they assume the government has obtained all the approval beforehand. Hence this operation have to be founded by government.

Gollevainen said:
Well if it comes accompanied with strict indication that that precission is the higher that the place can ever get, perhaps then But we dont know that....but I can assure you that nothing raises the natural "survey instict" better than inaccurate maps.

That is the most unconvincing argument to me. We all have to make a living, and no one go survey out the middle of nowhere just for the hack of it. To say the least, it's pretty expensive to organize an expedition of that nature.

Gollevainen said:
Well if they were scientist, like geologics or something else, and not professional surveyrs, Its even more likely that the whole case is just matter of accident. They propaply have been in Japan and in other western countries, happily "GPSing" like nothing and assumed that offcourse it can be done in China too....I would have done same mistake over myself if I would have been given the task, and att least I have took few lessons about the craft.

If they were scientist, then they would have cooperated with one of the scientific organization/institute/university in China to do the research -- this is the way things are normally done.

In another word, I am not convinced from your argument because they have no legitimate reasons to be there --
if they were doing anything legitimate, Chinese would be accompanying them.

Deleted member 675 · May 28, 2007

nemo said:
If they were scientist, then they would have cooperated with one of the scientific organization/institute/university in China to do the research -- this is the way things are normally done.

How many Japanese scientific expeditions to China do you have knowledge of?

In another word, I am not convinced from your argument because they have no legitimate reasons to be there -- if they were doing anything legitimate, Chinese would be accompanying them.

Again, why? Japanese scientists don't need Chinese ones holding their hand.

nemo · May 28, 2007

FuManChu said:
How many Japanese scientific expeditions to China do you have knowledge of?

Again, why? Japanese scientists don't need Chinese ones holding their hand.

It's not a matter of competence -- it's a matter of logistics.

1. local institutions can arrange logistics better.
2. local institutions can arrange necessary approval better.
3. local institutions are usually acknowledged expert in the subject matter.

Hence local institutions are almost always involved in legitimate researches. Scholarly research emphasis on sharing of information -- there is no reason to shut local institutions out when they can contribute much.

If you actually read the scholarly papers, how many researches in foreign country that does not involve native institutions?

Gollevainen · May 28, 2007

It could be that those surveyers are not intelligence agents themselves, but are duped into do this. Civilian won't dream of doing this by themselves unless they assume the government has obtained all the approval beforehand. Hence this operation have to be founded by government.

well sofar I havent heard a single word of what they were actually doing in there. You just dont go there and survey with GPS. there are different modes for GPS use and not all of them are anything related to surveying and only marginal of them are really worthwhile for inteligence purpose, expecially if they where in the middle of nowhere.

That is the most unconvincing argument to me. We all have to make a living, and no one go survey out the middle of nowhere just for the hack of it. To say the least, it's pretty expensive to organize an expedition of that nature.

well the fact that they are in the middle of nowhere makes the biggest prove that there isent anything inteligence nature in their practice. And it isent expensive, if you have the equipment and surveyres by yourselves. Of what I know of scientifical organisations doing survey, at least here they are reall nitch-pitching of everything and seldomly allow any "outsiders" like professional surveyers into their own projects and co-operation between universities have been it trouplesome.

If they were scientist, then they would have cooperated with one of the scientific organization/institute/university in China to do the research -- this is the way things are normally done.

In another word, I am not convinced from your argument because they have no legitimate reasons to be there --
if they were doing anything legitimate, Chinese would be accompanying them.

well my main argument has been that its most likely that these people didnt knew how those sort of things are done in China and that they somewhat lightheartedly overlooked the possibility that Chinese law migth forbid such things, based on the western athmosphere of surveying of which these guys propaply are use to work, or to that they are noob firstimers in such work and had no clue at all how the things are mented to take care

fishhead · May 28, 2007

Gollevainen said:
well sofar I havent heard a single word of what they were actually doing in there.

They're verifying the geophical coordinates of reference points in their sat images and maps with high precise GPS. So they can cablirate the whole image/map location information.

Too bad you don't know Chinese. The detail is published on China Defence Daily.

Deleted member 675 · May 28, 2007

nemo said:
It's not a matter of competence -- it's a matter of logistics.

nemo, it is possible that someone might just want to get on with something themselves and believe they can handle it. Also you're assuming any local institution would be experienced/interested/co-operative, etc.

You're making assumptions at every turn and then using them to try to show some sort of ulterior motive. If that's not what you're doing, I'm not sure why you're making such a fuss (because the other explanation would be that an innocent mistake was made).

By the way, I'd like to know what these missiles Japan was going to use against China after this survey (open to anyone).

nemo · May 28, 2007

Gollevainen said:
well sofar I havent heard a single word of what they were actually doing in there. You just dont go there and survey with GPS. there are different modes for GPS use and not all of them are anything related to surveying and only marginal of them are really worthwhile for inteligence purpose, expecially if they where in the middle of nowhere.

middle of nowhere is a figure of speech -- a better term is unpopulated. And there may be something interesting nearby -- a patrol caught them, and you don't deploy a patrol with nothing to guard. Plus the fact Chinese media are claiming possible missile strike-- it points to something interesting nearby.

Another suspicious point is how does either the civilian science agency or the survey team chance upon this secret installation? While it may be possible one (agency or team) is duped, it's unlikely both are duped. Hence this is likely to be intelligence operation.

Gollevainen said:
well the fact that they are in the middle of nowhere makes the biggest prove that there isent anything inteligence nature in their practice. And it isent expensive, if you have the equipment and surveyres by yourselves. Of what I know of scientifical organisations doing survey, at least here they are reall nitch-pitching of everything and seldomly allow any "outsiders" like professional surveyers into their own projects and co-operation between universities have been it trouplesome.

Well, we are talking about oversea trip plus equipment.
Arranging for all terrain vehicles and supplies for trip to unpopulated area. Not something to be done trivially, and it is funded by Japanese government agency.

And I don't see why you keep on denying the necessity of government approval on government land. In no country would you be allowed to do archeological digs without prior approval, for example.

Gollevainen said:
well my main argument has been that its most likely that these people didnt knew how those sort of things are done in China and that they somewhat lightheartedly overlooked the possibility that Chinese law migth forbid such things, based on the western athmosphere of surveying of which these guys propaply are use to work, or to that they are noob firstimers in such work and had no clue at all how the things are mented to take care

Well, more I dig into this, the more suspicious I get, particularly when government agency is involved. An organization experienced in scientific research with foregn country shouldn't be making this kind of mistakes -- and it's highly unlikely it's the first time they deal with China.

Roger604 · May 28, 2007

middle of nowhere is a figure of speech -- a better term is unpopulated. And there may be something interesting nearby -- a patrol caught them, and you don't deploy a patrol with nothing to guard. Plus the fact Chinese media are claiming possible missile strike-- it points to something interesting nearby.

It is very suspicious. Especially since it's happened time and time again, and I'm certain the Chinese have objected before.

Now what sort of assets stationed in Xinjiang could possibly pose a threat to Japan? Something you would put in the middle of nowhere. Hmmm.... possibly something newly inducted this year?

It sounds bad. Very bad.

Japanese GPS hulabaloo

Gollevainen

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Gollevainen

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