Japanese GPS hulabaloo

Re: New Speacial forces pictures

fishhead said:

Chinese newspapers run story that Japan is preparing to missile strike on China - maybe Chinese needs to launch a preemptive nuclear strike on Japan to prevent that.

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What missiles would Japan be using to attack China, then?

szbd said:

Well, law is law.

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You didn't answer Golle's point about unnecessary paranoia, when anyone with half a brain knows Japan has no missiles that could attack China in such a way.

We hear complaints about the "yellow threat" mentioned in US and other newspapers, yet many people here seem to have no trouble with Chinese media groups doing exactly the same thing over Japan when it doesn't even have the capabilities...

goldenpanda said:

Given what we know, they are probably already guilty under Chinese law.

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Then Chinese law needs updating to make more sense. In the UK, it was up until some years ago illegal to weave a basket on a Sunday in a London park - the penalty was death. Now it was never enforced because it was so ridiculous. But with your logic if your auntie had been caught doing it, she should have been dragged off and hung.

Re: New Speacial forces pictures

Ignorance of the law is by no means a good excuse for breaking them. A company can't get off by telling the enforcement officers "Sorry, we are not aware of the new enviromental protection laws, since they weren't there before!"

Maybe they have good intentions, but I think the Chinese government is just trying to make an example out of them. Golle, you are right that China need accurate data, but it is ultimately up to the Chinese government to determine what is stratigic and what is not. Not everyone view China as their friends and the government has to be careful about that. Therefore, they want people to get permission first before looking through their backyeard.

Re: New Speacial forces pictures

goldenpanda said:

China needs to be MUCH MORE liberal applying jail time to foreigners. China has this historical baggage, 得罪 (offend) foreigner => invasion. I'd give the survey guys 180 days each in some Heilong Jiang prison. Toilet is a hole, and your shit freezes to brick before it hits ground.

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Well, they received punishment according to the law, the same standard applys to Chinese citizen. It's like the punishment for doing sth without licence, not punishment for spying

Re: New Speacial forces pictures

jwangyue said:

Ignorance of the law is by no means a good excuse for breaking them.

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As I said, if a law is stupid there is no obligation to enforce it OR throw the book at the person in question. You can let them off with a light sentence and then change the law so that it makes sense.

A company can't get off by telling the enforcement officers "Sorry, we are not aware of the new enviromental protection laws, since they weren't there before!"

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No, they just get off by saying "if we have to agree to them, we'll wind up the company and then you'll have thousands of unemployed people to deal with".

Yeas Im not denying Chinese rigth to set the rules to their own nation, nor Am I saying that Japanese or other surveyers have rigth to ignore them. All I said that such laws are pretty uncommon in elsewhere and can couse mistakes such as in this case
My concerns are more on the ridicilous claims that such meassures have any inteligent purpose of what so ever

Gollevainen said:

Yeas Im not denying Chinese rigth to set the rules to their own nation, nor Am I saying that Japanese or other surveyers have rigth to ignore them. All I said that such laws are pretty uncommon in elsewhere and can couse mistakes such as in this case
My concerns are more on the ridicilous claims that such meassures have any inteligent purpose of what so ever

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Well, Xinjiang is a sensitive area of concern to China. Remember when the Uyghur terrorist acts of bombing and attaks were at the highest.. well, the American NGOs (Freedom House extension) were also at the highest number there. When China expel them, almost immediately the activities took a dive.. to a bombing a year.. to nil now. The East Turkish organisation has C!A support written all over it.

What I saying is that Japan is a staunch ally of the US.. thus, you might never know who they exactly works for... Geographic calibrations has many intelligence purposes .. will such studies be shared with the Chinese Govt ? Why does Geographic calibrations be any importance to the Japanese.. if its for mineral explorations without sesmic testing.. except for GPS mapping.

Another question is which visa did these Japanese used to gain entry to China? If they use tourist visa, they already violated the law. If they actually applied business visa, then China would at least have an opportunity to refuse the visa.

In any case, the Japanese company should at least check with the Chinese embassy to be sure what they are doing is not against the Chinese law. Failure to do so imply at least gross negligence.

And I don't buy that the law is obscure argument. You cannot even legally survey another country's EEC without approval. What make you think you can survey another country's territory? I wouldn't be surprised if Japan and USA already has similar laws or existing laws that can be applied in this situation.

Any way you look at it, the Japanese are really at fault here.

nemo said:

Another question is which visa did these Japanese used to gain entry to China?

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Somehow I doubt they were carrying out such activities on a tourist visa.

In any case, the Japanese company should at least check with the Chinese embassy to be sure what they are doing is not against the Chinese law.

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I take it you have never tried to get information out of an embassy. I have and generally they are staffed by people who:

a) aren't interested in your problem and will tell you to talk to someone else
b) if pushed will say "yes, yes, yes that's fine - just get the right visa"
c) don't actually know everything there is to know and will give the wrong advice

Chinese embassies are no different in that respect.

What make you think you can survey another country's territory?

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Because as Gollevainen said, in other countries the rules are far more relaxed and the authorities not nearly as paranoid as is the case in China.

Look at one of my earlier posts about weaving baskets in London. Would your auntie/granny have believed there was such a law? Ooops, sorry - law says we have to hang you now! You should have consulted with whichever department knows about that before you decided to make a basket!

Any way you look at it, the Japanese are really at fault here.

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How do you know they didn't ask for information and was given the wrong advice by whatever Chinese official they talked to?

What I saying is that Japan is a staunch ally of the US.. thus, you might never know who they exactly works for... Geographic calibrations has many intelligence purposes .. will such studies be shared with the Chinese Govt ? Why does Geographic calibrations be any importance to the Japanese.. if its for mineral explorations without sesmic testing.. except for GPS mapping.

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well I dont deny that there is a million of possible scenarios to be drewn out of the situation, expecially when the Arch-enemy of the Chinese is in question.

Thats why I have asked a detailed information of what exactly they were surveying and most importantly, in wich ways. I have acheived bit of training in surveying with GPS and my brother is actually quite good at it so I think I can explain what they were doing in there if just change would be given.

And I don't buy that the law is obscure argument. You cannot even legally survey another country's EEC without approval. What make you think you can survey another country's territory? I wouldn't be surprised if Japan and USA already has similar laws or existing laws that can be applied in this situation.

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well as a sort of semi ground-surveyr myself and knowing many "hard core" surveyers, I can assure, such law philosophy is akward and obscure. Sea surveying, expecially in EEC is completely another question and cannot in any sense claimed to be standard and harmless procedure. Just action would always have an "evil" purpose behind. But that doesent apply to basic land surveying, becouse all infrastructure, all construction, all areal politics, all real estate questions and many more cruicial fields of society depends on surveying that it is as common task as would be hitting a nail with hammer.
To think that it would require authorisation wouldnt even have crossed my mind untill this news.

Information update -- the culprit is actually a Japanese government agency. They should know better.


China fines 4 Japanese for unauthorized survey in Xinjiang

Friday, April 27, 2007 at 07:09 EDT

BEIJING — China has fined and confiscated surveying equipment from four Japanese citizens who were carrying out an unauthorized survey in Xinjiang autonomous region of northwestern China, a Chinese report said Thursday.

The four, commissioned by the Japanese government-affiliated Research Institute for Humanity and Nature, had carried out the survey on March 5, entering the region with two GPS devices as well as maps, said the report on the China National Radio website.