Japanese GPS hulabaloo

Violet Oboe said:

JThe japanese team could have deployed some sophisticated sensor gadgets monitoring seismic, climate and chemical data sending it cryptoprotected to a japanese satellite. These miniaturized and camouflaged (perhaps as a small rock) devices are very efficient and easy to deploy (just leave them behind after your ´visit behind the next bush´ ).

Eventually in the time of crisis they send real time data back to headquarters via satellite (a data base of previous monitorings will be enhanced by the most current data!) and Second Artillery's valuable mobile ICBM's are suddenly sitting ducks for a devastating surprise strike by ballistic or cruise missiles. Such a scenario would checkmate PLA's deterrent force instantly and consequently this has to be prevented by PLA under all circumstances.

Click to expand...

I'm just curious, how would a sensor like that detect a DF-31A?

I guess if it's just a tremor sensor, it would be able to sense and probably with computer processing distinguish a heavy truck passing by.

maybe by mapping the landmarks against the GPS coordinates. By comparing the satellite image cross and crossreferencing landmarks, a precise enough targeting may be possible.

Well, if the following are true, then this may be just a case of gross stupidity. But I still hold the law is justified.


Four Japanese citizens fined for illegal surveying in China


Four Japanese citizens have been fined 20,000 yuan (about 2,590 U.S. dollars) for illegal mapping and surveying activities in northwest Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, the regional bureau of surveying and mapping said on Thursday.

The four Japanese scholars, including Hidehiro Soma and three others, were asked by Japan's Research Institute for Humanity and Nature to carry out research into the ecological and environmental changes in the Ebinur lake, a salt lake in Xinjiang.

On March 5, the four men used GPS equipment to survey and map the area. Li Quanzhan, director of the bureau, said they had not obtained approval to carry out such mapping activities and their act had violated relevant Chinese laws.

"It was disrespectful to Chinese laws and their actions will not help research cooperation between the two countries," he said, adding that the bureau had confiscated the surveying equipment and results.

The four Japanese people later apologized and promised to abide by Chinese laws in future research activities in the country.

Last April, two Japanese scholars were fined 80,000 yuan (10,250 U.S. dollars) and deported for mapping the coordinates of an airport and water facilities in Hotan of Xinjiang.

Statistics from the bureau showed there were 759 cases of illegal surveying and mapping in 2006, many of which involved foreign organizations and individuals.

According to a new regulation which came to effect on March 1 this year, foreign organizations and individuals who intend to engage in surveying and mapping must obtain approval from the central government and be supervised by local governments.

Source: Xinhua

nemo said:

Well, if the following are true, then this may be just a case of gross stupidity. But I still hold the law is justified.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Four Japanese citizens fined for illegal surveying in China


Four Japanese citizens have been fined 20,000 yuan (about 2,590 U.S. dollars) for illegal mapping and surveying activities in northwest Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, the regional bureau of surveying and mapping said on Thursday.

The four Japanese scholars, including Hidehiro Soma and three others, were asked by Japan's Research Institute for Humanity and Nature to carry out research into the ecological and environmental changes in the Ebinur lake, a salt lake in Xinjiang.

On March 5, the four men used GPS equipment to survey and map the area. Li Quanzhan, director of the bureau, said they had not obtained approval to carry out such mapping activities and their act had violated relevant Chinese laws.

"It was disrespectful to Chinese laws and their actions will not help research cooperation between the two countries," he said, adding that the bureau had confiscated the surveying equipment and results.

The four Japanese people later apologized and promised to abide by Chinese laws in future research activities in the country.

Last April, two Japanese scholars were fined 80,000 yuan (10,250 U.S. dollars) and deported for mapping the coordinates of an airport and water facilities in Hotan of Xinjiang.

Statistics from the bureau showed there were 759 cases of illegal surveying and mapping in 2006, many of which involved foreign organizations and individuals.

According to a new regulation which came to effect on March 1 this year, foreign organizations and individuals who intend to engage in surveying and mapping must obtain approval from the central government and be supervised by local governments.

Source: Xinhua

Click to expand...

Looks more like unfamiliarity with a new law. I was right about them doing environmental studies.

Pointblank said:

Looks more like unfamiliarity with a new law. I was right about them doing environmental studies.

Click to expand...

Existing law applied even last year (2 people arrested and deported). The new law is additional requirement/clarification.

Okay let's say hypothetically.

Is it possible to create a network of seismic sensors that look like rocks on the ground, which are pre-configured to sense heavy trucks going by?

And there aren't many trucks as heavy as DF-31A TEL. Especially not in the remote regions where they are likely to be deployed.

fishhead said:

They're verifying the geophical coordinates of reference points in their sat images and maps with high precise GPS. So they can cablirate the whole image/map location information.

Too bad you don't know Chinese. The detail is published on China Defence Daily.

Click to expand...

well If you know chinese, best thing for this thread would be translation that we dont need to keep guessing

Anyway, if was refrence point mapping, expecially for high precission satelite maps aren't that easy to do with GPS, if your aim is in profesional accuracy and precission. They are mostly done by Total stations and attached to existing chinese basic refrence points. If such mapping would have been made by GPS it would have required at least that the Japanese would have needed information from Chinese officals of the cordinates and other accuracy data of atleast one chinese solid refrence point in the area of to wich to close the Mapping.

Only way to do such survey with solely GPS methods is to do it in RTK mode and in Virtual refrence station network, and I somehow doupt that there is VRS net in the area.

So now the key issue would be: what equipment did they have. Could those equipment to be used in such methods? And what did the Japanese side of the story said, that they were making a map around some lake area. There is huge difference in precission and accuracy when you are making map or GIS file with GPS and when you are surveying refrence point to areal/ or satelite maps. Becouse the Chinese media that claims the latter (but also cribble its own creditability with "japanese missiles") I would like to hear the Japanese description of it exactly.

nemo said:

middle of nowhere is a figure of speech -- a better term is unpopulated. And there may be something interesting nearby -- a patrol caught them, and you don't deploy a patrol with nothing to guard. Plus the fact Chinese media are claiming possible missile strike-- it points to something interesting nearby.

Another suspicious point is how does either the civilian science agency or the survey team chance upon this secret installation? While it may be possible one (agency or team) is duped, it's unlikely both are duped. Hence this is likely to be intelligence operation.

Click to expand...

Thats just paranoia. The patrol migth have been there simply becouse they knew that a punch of Japanese scientist were traveling to there, and they sended a watchfull eye to search first possiple sing that could be used as provocation in the saber-clash of Japanese and chinese hegemonies.

Or it could have been pure coincidence

Well, we are talking about oversea trip plus equipment.
Arranging for all terrain vehicles and supplies for trip to unpopulated area. Not something to be done trivially, and it is funded by Japanese government agency.

Click to expand...

Well of the little drops that I get from the japanese mission there speaks about geological and enveriomental research, wich seemed to be the main goal for the trip, the survey was just something that they needed to do for that research and that sort of things are really common and usual, as rarely the existing paper maps are in any good, and In research projects, it has come custome to use multi-media GIS maps that are easy to adapt with different statistical data. For such, you need digital map of the area, and if the area is small, you need one with real small scale. I doupt that there is a digital map base of entire China of from the Chinese scholars could have just go and pick adequate material.

So in that ligth, it was essential and reall ordinary meassure that the scientist begun mapping of their own map, either creating pure GIS file with DGPS type system or made refrence points to satelite maps of the area.

And I don't see why you keep on denying the necessity of government approval on government land. In no country would you be allowed to do archeological digs without prior approval, for example.

Click to expand...

well Archeological digs arent surveying Im speaking only of my own experience and from experience of lot more experienced sureveyrs from caffe-table conversations that i have had with some. Surveying is harmless and everyday matter that is simply mathematics. It doesent harm the enverioment and doesent leave any marks (unless you are making static points) of whatsoever to the land. In west the surveyers movment isent restricted unless in the usually restricted areas like military bases and nuclear plants, but in normal ground, You can go into anyone's yard and begun surveying if you work for the national agency.


But Im not saying that the law is wrong and shouldnt be obeyed by foreingers. Only that its really easy to neglect such law becouse something like it doesent exist in the western nations.

Well, more I dig into this, the more suspicious I get, particularly when government agency is involved. An organization experienced in scientific research with foregn country shouldn't be making this kind of mistakes -- and it's highly unlikely it's the first time they deal with China.

Click to expand...

Well like I said above, surveys werent its main craft. it wasent a Surveying organisation, so I dont doupt any if such mistake couldn't be made.