J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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Blitzo

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Again, at the situation of being risked to be back stabed by USA, what's required for China to beat Vietnam's crap out? Vietnam is possibly having least chances of getting America's aid - yet even so, what would required for China to win?

China is required to reserve THE BEST of any thing - the best army divisions, the best naval fleet, the best air wings, and don't even bother to use 2nd Artillary. - reserve these, to defend against any one from back stabing.

So, if I do not uses J-20, do I lack the ability of air-to-ground firepower? I guess you guys are too fancy about 4th / 5th gen fighters that forget who carrys the big gun.

H-6G (J,K...) and JH-7 will do.

And if you askes that H-6 and JH-7 can not response that rapidly as (if) J-20B will do, why not uses stealth fighter-bomber to deliver even more lethal blow?

Well, PLA got this long tradition of "not relying on fire support". So even I have to bleed a little more ground soilders at Vietnam, I will still reserve the lethal blow to the US fleet (whom trying to back stabing). At that point, dropping F-35 and F-22 with J-20 and let H-6 do their job - is still more effecient than let J-20B running virtually suicidal attack-runs towards an intact US fleet air dominance area.

My point maybe a little intimidating - that the whole world do not think anyone can tear the US fleet's (airbase's) air-dominance at first place, so that anyone intend to attack US fleet (airbase) CAN ONLY uses assassin style of attack runs, so that J-20 GOT TO BE assassin style of fighter-bomber, that there is NO WAY for J-20 to do something like BATTLE FOR BRITAIN, taking over the air-dominance from the Germans, and let B-25 and B-29 to do the rest of the job at a later day...

Or maybe the "experts" are just not THAT BOLD enough to imaging.

Red sword, the fact that we believe J-20 will have strike capability has nothing to do with any perceived inferiority on the PLAAF or the J-20's part.
Again I have to say -- J-20 with strike capability WILL NOT degrade its air superiority capability. And in this modern era no fighter aircraft is only air superiority, they always have secondary roles -- the F-22 can drop JDAMs and SDBs -- therefore it's logical for the J-20 to take up such a role as well.

With the J-20 you have a stealthy, high, fast flying platform as manoueverable as can be for air superiority, but you also have a big amount of space to hold weapons internally. I'm not saying J-20 should attack US carrier battle groups -- in fact I've been against the notion since it was raised -- but it can certainly hold a good amount of LS-6 or FT series bombs and attack heavily defended ground targets like radar or SAM or air fields.
It would be stupid to not use such a potent asset in the strike role in any contingency, and J-20 armed with PGMs do provide a penetrating capability the JH-7 and H-6 variants do not.
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
Red sword, the fact that we believe J-20 will have strike capability has nothing to do with any perceived inferiority on the PLAAF or the J-20's part.
Again I have to say -- J-20 with strike capability WILL NOT degrade its air superiority capability. And in this modern era no fighter aircraft is only air superiority, they always have secondary roles -- the F-22 can drop JDAMs and SDBs -- therefore it's logical for the J-20 to take up such a role as well.

With the J-20 you have a stealthy, high, fast flying platform as manoueverable as can be for air superiority, but you also have a big amount of space to hold weapons internally. I'm not saying J-20 should attack US carrier battle groups -- in fact I've been against the notion since it was raised -- but it can certainly hold a good amount of LS-6 or FT series bombs and attack heavily defended ground targets like radar or SAM or air fields.
It would be stupid to not use such a potent asset in the strike role in any contingency, and J-20 armed with PGMs do provide a penetrating capability the JH-7 and H-6 variants do not.

Well, I guess we have a different understanding of "what is air-superiority".

I don't know you, but let F-22 drop JDAMs is sounds like total waste to me. And if you emphasis that "someone have some kind of capability", it is true, J-6, J-7, J-8, J-10, J-11, WZ-8, WZ-9, WZ-10.... all have the capability to fire rockets, and I bet if the crew install rocket pods on J-20, it can work well also.

The way you feel let J-20 fire rockests is a waste (if not stupid), is exactly the way I feel let F-22 to drop JDAMs. And as you can see, people keeps emphasise of this "capability".

Bltize, I have nothing personal to "emphasis" here, I think it is just the different way of thinking, for us.
 

Anton Gregori

New Member
I think that implicit in this argument about the role of the J-20 is the idea that it has to be the only plane to engage or scare away an American intervention. I don't think that makes any sense.

The J-20 is a huge leap forward, but it's still not an all-around match for the latest western designs. So if you don't currently have the same level of technology as your competitors, you make other trade-offs. The Chinese designers seem to have gone for range, so they might not be able to beat an F-22 head-on, but they'll be able to engage the F-22's battle group before the F-22 can get close enough to hit J-20's base.

That ability makes the J-20 immediately useful, and also gives it a role in the medium term, after China introduces it's next fighter. If they introduce another fighter that focuses on air-superiority in the next ten or fifteen years, then that and the J-20 combined could be an excellent answer to the F-22, or even to the F-22's successor.
 

Blitzo

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Well, I guess we have a different understanding of "what is air-superiority".

I don't know you, but let F-22 drop JDAMs is sounds like total waste to me. And if you emphasis that "someone have some kind of capability", it is true, J-6, J-7, J-8, J-10, J-11, WZ-8, WZ-9, WZ-10.... all have the capability to fire rockets, and I bet if the crew install rocket pods on J-20, it can work well also.

The way you feel let J-20 fire rockests is a waste (if not stupid), is exactly the way I feel let F-22 to drop JDAMs. And as you can see, people keeps emphasise of this "capability".

Bltize, I have nothing personal to "emphasis" here, I think it is just the different way of thinking, for us.

Sure, no problem.

but arming an F-22 with JDAMs is not the same as arming a J-20 with rocket pods. One is useful, the other isn't. You wouldn't arm a J-20 with rocket pods anyway, you'd arm them with precision guided (satellite, optic, laser, or even a combination) munitions.
If you're up against an enemy with a relatively weak air force but a strong SAM defence network then that's where a fast, high altitude, stealthy striker is useful. Or even if it's a stronger air force the strike capability wll still be invaluable to target communication centres, air bases, etc.
Again I have to say that strike would be the J-20s secondary role, the primary will still be air superiority and the only real difference between the two is the additional avionics, which will not have a detrimental effect on air superiority.

Every plane you mentioned there -- J-6 to WZ-10, may be able to inflict the same amount of damage to the ground, but they won't be able to go to the places the J-20 can go, without being shot down.

I think that implicit in this argument about the role of the J-20 is the idea that it has to be the only plane to engage or scare away an American intervention. I don't think that makes any sense.

The J-20 is a huge leap forward, but it's still not an all-around match for the latest western designs. So if you don't currently have the same level of technology as your competitors, you make other trade-offs. The Chinese designers seem to have gone for range, so they might not be able to beat an F-22 head-on, but they'll be able to engage the F-22's battle group before the F-22 can get close enough to hit J-20's base.

I'm not sure about technology, but the capabilities should be there by about 2020, I see no reason why it can't take F-22s head on, while still having the extra bit of range and speed/altitude to pick off force multipliers like AWACS and tankers (if that's what you meant by the F-22's "battle group"). Honestly the J-20 isn't that much larger than F-22 or PAK FA, and the idea that the extra size/range means it must have made trade offs in other areas (technology??) is not very sensible.


That ability makes the J-20 immediately useful, and also gives it a role in the medium term, after China introduces it's next fighter. If they introduce another fighter that focuses on air-superiority in the next ten or fifteen years, then that and the J-20 combined could be an excellent answer to the F-22, or even to the F-22's successor.

I'm not sure what you mean here -- you said the J-20 can strike the F-22s "battle group" (I assume aerial formation/assets) before the F-22 can strike the J-20s base... but isn't that a bit too subjective? Who knows what kind of scenarios the two will engage in. A number of constants will be there, such as the performance of the respective fighters and maybe the weapons load out, but they could very well face off in the middle of the ocean mid-patrol, or the J-20s could be moving to strike US bases in the pacific and F-22s intercept, etc etc...

I agree the J-20 will be certainly useful in the mid to long term even until the USAF fields a 6th generation replacement, but your reasoning is rather skewed.
 

Anton Gregori

New Member
I'm not sure what you mean here -- you said the J-20 can strike the F-22s "battle group" (I assume aerial formation/assets) before the F-22 can strike the J-20s base... but isn't that a bit too subjective? Who knows what kind of scenarios the two will engage in. A number of constants will be there, such as the performance of the respective fighters and maybe the weapons load out, but they could very well face off in the middle of the ocean mid-patrol, or the J-20s could be moving to strike US bases in the pacific and F-22s intercept, etc etc...

Well, really I'm thinking of U.S. carrier battle groups. I don't really think that China and the U.S. will get into any sort of hot conflict in the next few decades, but what little risk there is is over Taiwan. So U.S. fighters would be operating with support from aircraft carriers, tankers, etc. Even if they're operating from Guam they'll need in-flight refueling, which will make them vulnerable.

I really don't anticipate that this generation of aircraft will ever get into proper battle far from China. Even when China completes its carrier(s), it will be going after Somali pirates or possibly doing U.S.-style operations against developing countries, not going after modern air forces.

They could of course face-off against F-22 in mid-patrol, but that's risky. If you know you've got the range advantage, then use your stealthiness to avoid detection and hit the infrastructure that the F-22s need to operate. If you're unlucky enough to run into an F-22 patrol, fire off a few missiles and run.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Off topic



Ahh thank you..I am humbled.



I'm not changing the forum rules. When the "salt, vinegar and soy sauce" is added usually it is a very heavy portion.

off topic over..
...But that's just how we like it in China...(at least where I'm from)

Anyways, it's entirely sensible for the J-20 to be both an air superiority and strike platform. Missions aimed at striking well defended sensitive targets will not only need something that can get passed the enemy front line, but also handle interior defenses, especially after being detected. Depending on the missions the J-20 will be expected to take, its design may aid in any number of different roles. Platform roles aren't mutually exclusive after all.
 

Blitzo

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Well, really I'm thinking of U.S. carrier battle groups. I don't really think that China and the U.S. will get into any sort of hot conflict in the next few decades, but what little risk there is is over Taiwan. So U.S. fighters would be operating with support from aircraft carriers, tankers, etc. Even if they're operating from Guam they'll need in-flight refueling, which will make them vulnerable.

I really don't anticipate that this generation of aircraft will ever get into proper battle far from China. Even when China completes its carrier(s), it will be going after Somali pirates or possibly doing U.S.-style operations against developing countries, not going after modern air forces.

They could of course face-off against F-22 in mid-patrol, but that's risky. If you know you've got the range advantage, then use your stealthiness to avoid detection and hit the infrastructure that the F-22s need to operate. If you're unlucky enough to run into an F-22 patrol, fire off a few missiles and run.

The range advantage (i.e.: extra space for fuel) does not necessarily equate to a longer range, it could also mean a greater patrol time.
I don't think the PLAAF would've requested such a fighter which can not hold its own against F-22s and would only be used to hit F-22 infrastructure...

(And the idea of J-20 attacking aicraft carriers has been raised before but has been mostly dismissed as a viable option).
 

Anton Gregori

New Member
I don't think the PLAAF would've requested such a fighter which can not hold its own against F-22s and would only be used to hit F-22 infrastructure...

Even if you think the J-20 can hold its own, a military strategist will go with the strategy that best leverages his strengths. If you've got better range, that gives you options. You don't want to trade your valuable J-20s for F-22s if you can take the F-22s out of the battle in a less risky way.

Even more so if I'm right and the F-22 will have an advantage head-to-head. It's not that China is missing any specific technology, but the U.S. has been producing advanced fighters for a lot longer. Their integrated weapons system - fighter, radar, targeting system, fly-by-wire system, missiles, etc. - is more mature. That takes time to develop, even if you have all the technological pieces.

(And the idea of J-20 attacking aicraft carriers has been raised before but has been mostly dismissed as a viable option).

"Other people don't think it will work" isn't really an argument. In any case, most of the discussion I've seen centers around whether or not the J-20 can carry large enough missiles to sink a ship, which isn't really relevant.

You don't need to sink a ship to take it out of commission operationally - you just need to hit the sensors or the runway. There are also AWACS in there air to target and support ships that you can disable. In addition to that, China has both long range cruise missiles and anti-ship ballistic missiles - if the J-20 can provide targeting information for land-based systems like this, that's enough to seriously threaten a carrier.

None of us know what combination of strategies China is looking at, but it would be foolish to think they don't have a plan to hit carriers. They're way too important an asset to just give up on attacking them. If you expect a conflict with the U.S., then carriers will be at the center of it.
 

Blitzo

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Even if you think the J-20 can hold its own, a military strategist will go with the strategy that best leverages his strengths. If you've got better range, that gives you options. You don't want to trade your valuable J-20s for F-22s if you can take the F-22s out of the battle in a less risky way.

Sure, I completely agree.

Even more so if I'm right and the F-22 will have an advantage head-to-head. It's not that China is missing any specific technology, but the U.S. has been producing advanced fighters for a lot longer. Their integrated weapons system - fighter, radar, targeting system, fly-by-wire system, missiles, etc. - is more mature. That takes time to develop, even if you have all the technological pieces.

Technology shouldn't be the barrier, but rather doctrine and experience in operating 5th generation fighters... Espicially if we're looking at it around ~2020. Anytime beyond that then the capability between F-22 and J-20 should only start to decrease.

"Other people don't think it will work" isn't really an argument.

It's not an argument, it's a plea to not dig up that old idea again.

In any case, most of the discussion I've seen centers around whether or not the J-20 can carry large enough missiles to sink a ship, which isn't really relevant.

That was one of the points, but not the center... And the size of the missile matters of course -- it determines how much damage it can inflict, how much distance it has to travel to the target (and in turn influencing the J-20 launch platform's turn around distance), seeker size, etc etc.

You don't need to sink a ship to take it out of commission operationally - you just need to hit the sensors or the runway.

Hitting the runway or sensors of a ship with a relatively small size warhead will only temporarily disable the target vessel -- the US for one are known for having their ships take damage and then getting it back in the frontlines in no time. Why risk J-20s through a phalanx of aerial and sea based sensors, SM-2, SM-6, fighter craft... just to inflict relatively minor damage?

There are also AWACS in there air to target and support ships that you can disable. In addition to that, China has both long range cruise missiles and anti-ship ballistic missiles - if the J-20 can provide targeting information for land-based systems like this, that's enough to seriously threaten a carrier.

J-20 will definitely be used to target aerial assets like AWACS and tankers, where one air to air missile is enough to shoot it down..
J-20 searching for ships or providing some level of targeting data is a more plausible mission, it's range/loiter time and stealth will play roles there (though MPA and UAVs could take this role instead). It's certainly far more reasonable than directly using J-20 to attack a CVBG...

None of us know what combination of strategies China is looking at, but it would be foolish to think they don't have a plan to hit carriers. They're way too important an asset to just give up on attacking them. If you expect a conflict with the U.S., then carriers will be at the center of it.

Yes duh. My argument is that the idea of J-20s being used to directly attack carriers is... near ridiculous, until they get a capable missile that's able to fit internally.
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
This thread, from the time I know that ppl at this forum have some non-Bull-Sh*t level of discuss on it (the next gen fighter), I have take a read of the thread throughly.

It took me more than 2 months to read ALL the posts, from #1, till so far, to even start to post my opinion.

What I saw, the anticipation (distant rumor of "BS level" of credibility that "this stff is real!") of people down here at 2006, shifts, changes, shocks... to today's (2011) overall opinion (that China built something ass-kicking!)

I saw nay-sayers, I saw racialist, I saw tech-geeks, I may even saw Intel Collectors.
I saw nay-sayers (bitterfully) change minds; I saw racialists dealt by hardworking mods; I saw tech-geeks "tought" others with his aspects while himself benificially learnt from others; I may even saw Intel Collectors "get the message", sent intentionly by those who try to "leak".

What I want to say here, is, guys, look into the issue humbly, for we all could laughably-wrong (side-tracked), for what we looking at, is a nation's (especially, "another nation"-to many of you guys) (subtle) wisdom - instead of one piece of machine.

The above, is only my EMOTIONAL EXPRESS, please don't take any side-meanings.
 
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