J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

Kalec

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@萌虎鲸: 第一年我们的五代机超越美帝增量,值得纪念

"This is the the first year we procured more 5th gen aircraft than the US."

Context: "As a result, the company anticipates that a total of 97 F-35s will be delivered in 2023, down from a previous estimate of anywhere between 100 to 120, the company said in a statement."

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drowingfish

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New round of productivity debate about to coming up....

@萌虎鲸: 第一年我们的五代机超越美帝增量,值得纪念

"This is the the first year we procured more 5th gen aircraft than the US."

Context: "As a result, the company anticipates that a total of 97 F-35s will be delivered in 2023, down from a previous estimate of anywhere between 100 to 120, the company said in a statement."

Source:
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the PLAAF must really like J-20 to be procuring in these numbers. neither J-10 or J-11 were being procured at this rate...nor any other aircraft in the last 20 years.
 

Blitzo

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New round of productivity debate about to coming up....

@萌虎鲸: 第一年我们的五代机超越美帝增量,值得纪念

"This is the the first year we procured more 5th gen aircraft than the US."

Context: "As a result, the company anticipates that a total of 97 F-35s will be delivered in 2023, down from a previous estimate of anywhere between 100 to 120, the company said in a statement."

Source:
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I assume the translation should probably be more "produced" rather than "procured" and I think it probably means it should refer to total F-35 production rather than US only.
Because in terms of US only procurement of F-35s in 2023 isn't actually that many -- it's only a fraction of the total number that Lockheed delivers a year (a fraction of 97).

I'm suspecting they mean there will be more than J-20s produced total this year than F-35s produced total (97)
 

siegecrossbow

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I assume the translation should probably be more "produced" rather than "procured" and I think it probably means it should refer to total F-35 production rather than US only.
Because in terms of US only procurement of F-35s in 2023 isn't actually that many -- it's only a fraction of the total number that Lockheed delivers a year (a fraction of 97).

I'm suspecting they mean there will be more than J-20s produced total this year than F-35s produced total (97)

Not to mention that it happened due to a slipup with Lockheed production. That said, triple digit production of heavy fighter is extremely impressive even not accounting for the fact that it is a stealth fighter. No other country has done that in recent times.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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Not to mention that it happened due to a slipup with Lockheed production.
True. I'm inclined to believe that the F-35's production hiccup this year is more of a common flu rather than a whooping cough. Once they manage to resolve those teething problems, F-35 resuming (near-)full-scale production should be expected.

Still, quite an impressive achievement by Chengdu. At least, this post by @萌虎鲸 on Weibo tells us that Chengdu is highly likely to be able of producing J-20s in the triple digits this year, and for the first time at that - Or, at the very very least, 98x or 99x J-20s.

Much congrats, Chengdu! And Shenyang, we're waiting...

That said, triple digit production of heavy fighter is extremely impressive even not accounting for the fact that it is a stealth fighter. No other country has done that in recent times.
Indeed. Not even LockMart is able to come close to that with their F-22's production, of which the F-22 is also a heavy-weight, twin-engine 5th-gen fighter. The 195x F-22 were produced from 1996 till 2011, which averages to about 12.2x F-22s per year.

Chengdu is really doing some heavy-lifting work in the buildup of China's 5th-gen fighter fleet, right there.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

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I assume the translation should probably be more "produced" rather than "procured" and I think it probably means it should refer to total F-35 production rather than US only.
Because in terms of US only procurement of F-35s in 2023 isn't actually that many -- it's only a fraction of the total number that Lockheed delivers a year (a fraction of 97).

I'm suspecting they mean there will be more than J-20s produced total this year than F-35s produced total (97)
Looking back:

The "97x F-35s" figure, which I believe has been inferred from @牧星观海天‘s original post (which was then quote-posted by @萌虎鲸) is actually referring to the number of F-35s delivered to the customers in 2023 (including the USAF, USMC & USN), rather than the number of F-35s produced in 2023.

Here's the original post by @牧星观海天:
F-35今年恐交付不足百架——到2022年,F-35共交付超过890架,到2023年10月,交付超过975架,这意思2023年10个月才交付了85架,按照这个速率,今年交付恐不足百架

2019年~2022年,洛马每年交付都在120架以上,其中2019年134架,2020年123架,2021年142架,2022年约140架。

此前洛马公司表示今年计划交付150架,但是今年6月,美国国防部以F-35 TR-3版本硬件不成熟为由,表示从7月开始拒绝接收相应版本的F-35。当时洛马交付了45架F-35,另有50架TR-2版本正在生产。

Roughly translated:
The F-35 is likely to deliver less than 100 aircraft this year - by 2022, a total of more than 890 F-35 aircraft will be delivered, and by October 2023, more than 975 aircraft will be delivered. This means that only 85 aircraft will be delivered in 10 months of 2023. According to this, at this rate, less than 100 aircraft may be delivered this year.

From 2019 to 2022, Lockheed Martin will deliver more than 120 aircraft every year, including 134 aircraft in 2019, 123 aircraft in 2020, 142 aircraft in 2021, and approximately 140 aircraft in 2022.

Previously, Lockheed Martin stated that it planned to deliver 150 aircraft this year. However, in June this year, the US Department of Defense stated that it would refuse to receive the corresponding version of F-35 from July on the grounds that the hardware of the F-35 TR-3 version was immature. At that time, Lockheed Martin had delivered 45 F-35s, and another 50 TR-2 versions were in production.

Therefore, I do expect that the number of F-35s produced by LockMart this year is still going to be 100+, regardless of whether the Pentagon's refusal of accepting new F-35 deliveries from July onwards resulted in any sort of the F-35's production slow-down for the remainder of the 2023 or not.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

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Also, based on @牧星观海天's last paragraph in his post:
此前洛马公司表示今年计划交付150架,但是今年6月,美国国防部以F-35 TR-3版本硬件不成熟为由,表示从7月开始拒绝接收相应版本的F-35。当时洛马交付了45架F-35,另有50架TR-2版本正在生产。
Previously, Lockheed Martin stated that it planned to deliver 150 aircraft this year. However, in June this year, the US Department of Defense stated that it would refuse to receive the corresponding version of F-35 from July on the grounds that the hardware of the F-35 TR-3 version was immature. At that time, Lockheed Martin had delivered 45 F-35s, and another 50 TR-2 versions were in production.

Let's lay down some figures.
1. Originally-planned number of F-35 delivery for 2023 = 150
2. Until June 2023:
- Number of F-35s delivered = 45
- Number of F-35s in production = 50
3. Number of F-35s delivered by Oct 2023 = At least 85
4. Number of F-35s delivered Jul-Oct 2023 = At least 40, meaning a rate of at least 10 per month
Hence, using rough extrapolation, the number of F-35s that can be delivered for 2023 should be around 100 as well, IMHO.

Therefore, based on what can be inferred, the number of F-35s delivered and the number of J-20s built OR delivered should be in the low-100, other than 97. I don't expect the numbers between the two fighters to differ much.

However, the phrase which I have bolded is the key question, which @萌虎鲸's rather vague post didn't clarify - Will Chengdu build around 100x J-20s in 2023, or will Chengdu deliver around 100x J-20s in 2023? These two differs massively.

My gut feeling tells me that the former is more likely.
 
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Blitzo

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Looking back:

The "97x F-35s" figure, which I believe has been inferred from @牧星观海天‘s original post (which was then quote-posted by @萌虎鲸) is actually referring to the number of F-35s delivered to the customers in 2023 (including the USAF, USMC & USN), rather than the number of F-35s produced in 2023.

Here's the original post by @牧星观海天:


Roughly translated:


Therefore, I do expect that the number of F-35s produced by LockMart this year is still going to be 100+, regardless of whether the Pentagon's refusal of accepting new F-35 deliveries from July onwards resulted in any sort of the F-35's production slow-down for the remainder of the 2023 or not.

The 97 number is from Defense News, which described it as if it were the total number of F-35s to be delivered to all international F-35 customers, not only US customers (USAF, USN, USMC).

"Until now, Lockheed predicted that the first F-35s loaded up with what’s known as the Tech Refresh 3 (TR-3) update could be delivered by the end of the calendar year, but the company now estimates that the first delivery won’t occur until sometime between April and June 2024. As a result, the company anticipates that a total of 97 F-35s will be delivered in 2023, down from a previous estimate of anywhere between 100 to 120, the company said in a statement."


The difference between "produced" and "delivered" is somewhat different, because in aircraft production parlance, completion of the airframe doesn't necessarily mean the aircraft has finished production. Integration of the software is rather important, and that is of course why the TR-3 enabled F-35 airframes that were produced by Lockheed won't be accepted by customers this year which is why they're stating 97 F-35s will be "delivered".
In terms of actual airframes "produced," Lockheed are still expecting to build 156 this year.
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"Lockheed said it is continuing F-35 production, expecting to build 156 this year, while continuing to work on finalizing the development and testing of TR-3′s software."


As for what was originally meant by the "more 5th gen than US this year" statement, if we want to be really anal retentive, we can view the permutations of possibilities based on whether 萌虎鲸 was referring to F-35s delivered versus F-35s produced this year in 2023, and whether he was referring to F-35s intended for the US or not or whether it meant total F-35s...

But I have a feeling he probably didn't think about it that carefully when he wrote it, so, and I doubt he is aware of how many F-35s of 97 delivered this year or 156 produced this year (respectively) are intended for the US, so I suspect he referred to the total number of F-35s in both instances (the right column).

Which basically leads us to the question of is he suggesting China this year will build or deliver 97 J-20s this year or build or delivery more than 156 J-20s this year (to make his statement true) -- and I would be somewhat surprised if it was the latter, because in 2023 we are not expecting J-20 production this year to exceed the 150 mark yet.

So putting it all back together, it's probably just an esoteric way of saying that he anticipates China to build or deliver some 100 odd J-20s this year. And even despite all that we can't really specify whether he is referring to "build" or "deliver".
.... and this is why I often don't like these kind of vague Weibo quote posting where we have to do so much work just to reverse engineer what the intentions of their statements are.

US F-35s onlyTotal F-35s
Referring to F-35s "delivered"
(97 airframes)
No. of J-20s > No. of the 97 F-35s intended for USNo. of J-20s this year >97
Referring to F-35s "produced"
(156 airframes)
No. of J-20s > No. of the 156 F-35s intended for USNo. of J-20s this year >156
 

coolgod

Major
Registered Member
The 97 number is from Defense News, which described it as if it were the total number of F-35s to be delivered to all international F-35 customers, not only US customers (USAF, USN, USMC).

"Until now, Lockheed predicted that the first F-35s loaded up with what’s known as the Tech Refresh 3 (TR-3) update could be delivered by the end of the calendar year, but the company now estimates that the first delivery won’t occur until sometime between April and June 2024. As a result, the company anticipates that a total of 97 F-35s will be delivered in 2023, down from a previous estimate of anywhere between 100 to 120, the company said in a statement."


The difference between "produced" and "delivered" is somewhat different, because in aircraft production parlance, completion of the airframe doesn't necessarily mean the aircraft has finished production. Integration of the software is rather important, and that is of course why the TR-3 enabled F-35 airframes that were produced by Lockheed won't be accepted by customers this year which is why they're stating 97 F-35s will be "delivered".
In terms of actual airframes "produced," Lockheed are still expecting to build 156 this year.
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"Lockheed said it is continuing F-35 production, expecting to build 156 this year, while continuing to work on finalizing the development and testing of TR-3′s software."


As for what was originally meant by the "more 5th gen than US this year" statement, if we want to be really anal retentive, we can view the permutations of possibilities based on whether 萌虎鲸 was referring to F-35s delivered versus F-35s produced this year in 2023, and whether he was referring to F-35s intended for the US or not or whether it meant total F-35s...

But I have a feeling he probably didn't think about it that carefully when he wrote it, so, and I doubt he is aware of how many F-35s of 97 delivered this year or 156 produced this year (respectively) are intended for the US, so I suspect he referred to the total number of F-35s in both instances (the right column).

Which basically leads us to the question of is he suggesting China this year will build or deliver 97 J-20s this year or build or delivery more than 156 J-20s this year (to make his statement true) -- and I would be somewhat surprised if it was the latter, because in 2023 we are not expecting J-20 production this year to exceed the 150 mark yet.

So putting it all back together, it's probably just an esoteric way of saying that he anticipates China to build or deliver some 100 odd J-20s this year. And even despite all that we can't really specify whether he is referring to "build" or "deliver".
.... and this is why I often don't like these kind of vague Weibo quote posting where we have to do so much work just to reverse engineer what the intentions of their statements are.

US F-35s onlyTotal F-35s
Referring to F-35s "delivered"
(97 airframes)
No. of J-20s > No. of the 97 F-35s intended for USNo. of J-20s this year >97
Referring to F-35s "produced"
(156 airframes)
No. of J-20s > No. of the 156 F-35s intended for USNo. of J-20s this year >156
Can you with your clout PM him on weibo and find out what he means for us?
 
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