J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

ACuriousPLAFan

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I think based on CAC factory expansion + this, 150 J-20s a year will happen in another 3 years.

And I also think large UCAV production is about to get started.

I had expected them to continue producing J-20s at about 100 a year, but this to me seems like a concerted effort by PLA to dramatically increase the size of their stealth aircraft force. I think all the J-10A and J-11A units will get replaced by the end of this decade.
One interesting thing about China's massive adoption of industrial robots and automation is, human workers need to be paid regardless if he/she does anything, and human loses skill if idled for too long, while an unpowered and sealed robot require no maintenance, consume no energy and do not forget its programming.

So for things that reach high level of automation, like ammo, shells, missiles, drones, it does not actually cost very much to reserve large surge capacity, especially with China both operates and installs more than half of all robots on the planet.

General Atomics recently claimed (if not boasted) that their factory will be able to produce CCAs at a rate of one airframe every two days (i.e. 182.5 airframes per year), and one airframe per day (i.e. 365 airframes per year) after expansion.

Given that Chengdu AC is already capable of rolling out ~100 twin-engine J-20s per year, and that LockMart is capable of producing 150+ single-engine F-35s per year (at full-rate production) - CCA-type UCAVs that are comparably smaller and less complex than manned fighters should be consiserably easier and cheaper to build.

And given China's present state of advanced manufacturing prowess, no doubt China will certainly be able to match if not surpass that proclaimed production capability.

In the near future, we could actually see future combat warplanes being made like how our cars are being made today.

In the meantime, besides the J-20, J-16 and Sino-CCA, there are definitely way greater demands for such metamaterials from the likes of J-31/35, flying wing U(C)AVs (GJ-11, CH-7, Sky Hawk etc), H-20 and even the Sino-NGAD.
 
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iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
General Atomics recently claimed (if not boasted) that their factory will be able to produce CCAs at a rate of one airframe every two days (i.e. 182.5 airframes per year), and one airframe per day (i.e. 365 airframes per year) after expansion.

Given that Chengdu AC is already capable of rolling out ~100 twin-engine J-20s per year, and that LockMart is capable of producing 150+ single-engine F-35s per year (at full-rate production) - CCA-type UCAVs that are comparably smaller and less complex than manned fighters should be consiserably easier and cheaper to build.

And given China's present state of advanced manufacturing prowess, no doubt China will certainly be able to match if not surpass that proclaimed production capability.

In the near future, we could actually see future combat warplanes being made like how our cars are being made today.

In the meantime, besides the J-20, J-16 and Sino-CCA, there are definitely way greater demands for such metamaterials from the likes of J-31/35, flying wing U(C)AVs (GJ-11, CH-7, Sky Hawk etc), H-20 and even the Sino-NGAD.
I don't think you can equate General Atomics' claim of what they plan in the future with the reality that Chinese civilian drone production to support Low Altitude Economy will alone far exceed that.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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Registered Member
I don't think you can equate General Atomics' claim of what they plan in the future with the reality that Chinese civilian drone production to support Low Altitude Economy will alone far exceed that.

Civilian drones for low-altitude economies are magnitudes less complex, challenging and expensive to procure, operate and maintain than military-grade CCA-type UCAVs.

I'm mainly basing my expectations (or extrapolations) on the current (and near future) production rates of the J-20 and F-35, both of which are much more complex and expensive to procure, operate and maintain than those CCA-type UCAVs.
 

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
Civilian drones for low-altitude economies are magnitudes less complex, challenging and expensive to procure, operate and maintain than military-grade CCA-type UCAVs.

I'm mainly basing my expectations (or extrapolations) on the current (and near future) production rates of the J-20 and F-35, both of which are much more complex and expensive to procure, operate and maintain than those CCA-type UCAVs.
Yes and no. I'm talking about regional cargo rather than small urban delivery, for those, other than the jet engine, they can easily share the same supply chain for composites, avionics and even production line as CCA.

Technologically the reliability, networking and airspace sensing requirements for unmanned airspace integration is a lot closer to CCA than to traditional manned VFR or even IFR operations. The requirement to operate both small drones in urban areas or eVTOL or large drones over populated areas are in themselves already extremely advanced requiring airspace sense and avoid, mass fleet coordination, high level of mission critical autonomy, and full suite of sensors on the drone. We take for granted DJI drones with AESA and vision based collision avoidance, but those are the same technology you need for CCA, just at higher power levels.

Of course you can always make CCA just as expensive as J-20 with similar weight, high-g manoeuvrability, supersonic flights, etc, but if China's CCA is GJ-11, then GJ-11 does not do any of those things, and China has always been good at keeping projects within scope and taking advantage of its civilian industral base, e.g. shipbuilding.
 

tphuang

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General Atomics recently claimed (if not boasted) that their factory will be able to produce CCAs at a rate of one airframe every two days (i.e. 182.5 airframes per year), and one airframe per day (i.e. 365 airframes per year) after expansion.

Given that Chengdu AC is already capable of rolling out ~100 twin-engine J-20s per year, and that LockMart is capable of producing 150+ single-engine F-35s per year (at full-rate production) - CCA-type UCAVs that are comparably smaller and less complex than manned fighters should be consiserably easier and cheaper to build.

And given China's present state of advanced manufacturing prowess, no doubt China will certainly be able to match if not surpass that proclaimed production capability.

In the near future, we could actually see future combat warplanes being made like how our cars are being made today.

In the meantime, besides the J-20, J-16 and Sino-CCA, there are definitely way greater demands for such metamaterials from the likes of J-31/35, flying wing U(C)AVs (GJ-11, CH-7, Sky Hawk etc), H-20 and even the Sino-NGAD.
Keep in mind that Lockmart was capable of produce 500 F-16s a year back in the days.
At this point, I would not use American company figures to judge what China is capable off.

What really got me interested here is the idea that supply was so constrained in the past year that they had to quickly scale up a new plant (which 3x the capacity) by end of this year to meet the demand.

It seems very likely that J-35s will start LRIP soon. I'm hoping that GJ-11 production will start too.

It doesn't seem necessary to speculate about future types, when the dramatic production increase is for this year and next 2 years.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Like a factory with capacity of 100k artillery shells per day below?
He was talking about production lines of 152mm shells that China built during the cold war era when the "China helping Russia" subject was brought up. I would expect this is a default practice of China even today, so it applies to the newer 155mm line.

Let's get back to J-20.
 

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
General Atomics recently claimed (if not boasted) that their factory will be able to produce CCAs at a rate of one airframe every two days (i.e. 182.5 airframes per year), and one airframe per day (i.e. 365 airframes per year) after expansion.

Given that Chengdu AC is already capable of rolling out ~100 twin-engine J-20s per year, and that LockMart is capable of producing 150+ single-engine F-35s per year (at full-rate production) - CCA-type UCAVs that are comparably smaller and less complex than manned fighters should be consiserably easier and cheaper to build.

And given China's present state of advanced manufacturing prowess, no doubt China will certainly be able to match if not surpass that proclaimed production capability.

In the near future, we could actually see future combat warplanes being made like how our cars are being made today.

In the meantime, besides the J-20, J-16 and Sino-CCA, there are definitely way greater demands for such metamaterials from the likes of J-31/35, flying wing U(C)AVs (GJ-11, CH-7, Sky Hawk etc), H-20 and even the Sino-NGAD.

Until I see actual production I don't believe them. US claims about production are simply not credible until delivery is at least somewhat verified by other sources. Therefore, I believe that trying to extrapolate production from any US numbers is an exercise in failure. There's been a lot of projects involving automation, assembly, or really any form of scaled production that United States has had huge issues with.

Even with relatively "simple" goods like batteries, US manufacturers (where US military industrial might is ultimately sourced from) have repeatedly failed to scale up production to produce "meaningful" numbers. The most successful EV manufacturer in US, Tesla, took years to to scale up production after a lot of trial and error. They ultimately had to cut down on some of their automation ambitions and hire more workers.

In fact, in that sense, it'd be a lot more useful to look at history, scaling, and final productivity in Tesla's Shanghai factory vs Tesla's Austin site in order to gain some measure of insight of US vs China's productivity in scaling manufacturing. Then compare Tesla Austin vs US Auto manufacturers (inlcuding ICE car factories), and try to derive some meaningful insights into US manufacturing.

After having done all that we should look at current US aerospace production. Not just the disasterclass of Lockheed's F-35 upgrades, but Boeing's Eagle progress, Lockheed's own F-16 production, various drone programs, and so on and so forth.

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Either way, while there are useful insights and things we can glean from US production, I don't think there's actually much that we can use as a point of reference for predicting China's production or capability.

From my perspective, as a Western viewer, I also cannot comment on how good China's production capability is when it comes to 5th gen platforms and so on. From a raw numbers perspective, it's certainly impressive that China can manufactur 100 5th gen jets a year. However, there's a lot of opacity. Chengdu's floor space has increased significantly, but why should I believe that Chengdu will increase its production to 150/Year instead of 200 or 250 J-20s per year?

Or, conversely, are there reasons or possibilities where Chengdu only increases production to 120/Year?

I haven't read every single post of every J-20 thread, but I think I've made reasonable efforts to go back and read most of the pertinent information.
 
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