J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

gongolongo

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Experts have called F-35 a fat turkey. When J-20 and F-35 fight, it will no longer be a long range BVR fight due to stealth from both sides. This is where J-20 advantages will be obvious. Its delta Canard design is significantly more manuverable than F-35. Delta Canard design is also better in terms of supersonic manuverablity. So, it can evade BVR missiles better. Being better at manuverability is not just about winning dogfights. Its also about evading BVR missiles. Modern BVR battles are all about firing your missiles and then using manuverability to evade your opponents missiles. This is where J-20 will have the advantage.

J-20 is also significantly bigger, which means it will have a bigger Radar. It will have bigger ECM capability. That means it can detect F-35 much earlier. J-20 also has a much bigger missile in the PL-15, which means it can carry more fuel and thus have bigger range or bigger no escape zone. J-20 also has DAS and IRST, so it can detect F-35 without using Radar.

I think F-35 has absolutely no chance against the J-20. Its a simply handicapped design due to its original mission which was being a second rate fighter bomber. When US designed the F-35, they didn't even think China could be a peer opponent. So, they designed a compromised design focusing on cost reduction. That has made F-35 a terrible Air superiority fighter. F-35 was never designed to be a top line fighter. The top line fighter for US is F-22. But its now terribly outdated. They might be able to upgrade it somehow. But 150 F-22 will do nothing against 1000 J-20 that will be online by 2030.
I'm not sure I would be 100% sure about putting the J-20 above the F-35 though. J-20 being larger also means (if similar stealth methods are employed) that it also has a larger RCS. Also, bigger radar doesn't mean it's better, there's other things like software that are just as import.

With missiles like the AIM-9X and PL-10, I don't think there will be a big need for maneuverability to the point where the aircraft have significant differences.

The F-35 is an incredible aircraft at the end of the day even after it's problematic development.
 

tphuang

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I'm not sure I would be 100% sure about putting the J-20 above the F-35 though. J-20 being larger also means (if similar stealth methods are employed) that it also has a larger RCS. Also, bigger radar doesn't mean it's better, there's other things like software that are just as import.

With missiles like the AIM-9X and PL-10, I don't think there will be a big need for maneuverability to the point where the aircraft have significant differences.

The F-35 is an incredible aircraft at the end of the day even after its problematic development.

f22 is larger than f35, but has lower rcs. The gain you get in additional power and cooling you get from larger aircraft is far more important than RCS. That’s why j31 doesn’t seem great for plaaf to me. It’s not big enough.

I am listening to this podcast on F35 heat management system and it’s just dawned to me how important it is to have more space so that you can deliver more power and handle cooling for the system you have on board. They talked about how initial f35 power is 14kw and they want to increase cooling requirements to 80kw for tr4 to future proof future needs. That’s a major part of the complexity and delays in tr4.

and it seems obvious that more space gives you more room to cool your system given the constraints of operating in physical constraints of an aircraft.

so larger aircraft advantages go far beyond just range and payload.

this btw is also where China expertise in EVs and phones really come into play. A lot of the tech you develop for that can be applied here.

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tamsen_ikard

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This is too oversimplified. We don't know enough about these planes and their capabilities, RCS, IR signatures, RAM coats, sensors, armaments, escorts, AWACS capabilities, strategies, tactics, etc., to come to these conclusions.



When you say the J-20 is bigger, and therefore, better, you are assuming both sides are equally capable, technologically speaking. The truth is the US has decades on China in that regard

The F-22A can likely compete with the J-20 in all regards. The F-35 might be incapable of competing with the J-20, it still lays out the foundation for a next generation air superiority fighter to be produced in a relatively short amount of time.

I'm not sure I would be 100% sure about putting the J-20 above the F-35 though. J-20 being larger also means (if similar stealth methods are employed) that it also has a larger RCS. Also, bigger radar doesn't mean it's better, there's other things like software that are just as import.

I see this tendency among many that just because US had a headstart or that US is richer country, so somehow it will automatically have superior technology in everything. I think this kind of thinking is kinda outdated when it comes to China's technological development.

Yes, China was far behind in the past. But just because it was behind does not mean it cannot catch up. If we look China's track record in the past 2 decades. It has caught up to US and even surpassed US in some fields such as missile tech. Look at China track record with High speed rail tech, Nuclear power, Chip technology. In every field China has put attention to close the gap, it has done so.

Look at China's space program. It was nowhere 20 years ago. But can anyone honestly say that China is behind now when it has probably the better Space Station in terms of modern tech compared to US designed ISS? And China recently sampled from far side of the moon.

As you guys said, we don't know about factors like RCS, IR, RAM, sensors and so on. But that does not mean the default assumption should be that Chinese tech on these elements is worse. Chinese researchers are not amateurs. They designed J-20 almost 10 years later than F-35 and 30 years later than F-22. So, why should their tech be behind? Its not like they could not see what was out there. They probably read research papers, spied, copied and stole as much as they could. They had a standard that they could focus on as a target. And I doubt they did not achieve it.

Moreover, China has a long track record of showing that it only mass produces military equipment when its cutting edge compared to US tech. So, why should J-20 be any different in this aspect? Why should China be okay with second rate sensors, Radars, RAM coating and so on?

Also, you have seen China's development when it comes to radars and other sensors. The way China has put AESA in even cheap drones and produced superior AESA Radar on PLAN Ships should be an indication that its radar for J-20 should be atleast equal in Tech compared to F-35.

Finally, Software tech is the easiest for China to be cutting edge on. China has clearly caught up to US in software tech in every way possible. So, things like networking, sensor fusion which are mainly just software should be by default China's expertise.

Therefore, TLDR, If you don't know something about a particular tech. Especially when it comes radar, electronics, sensors, software, the default assumption should be that China and US are equal in tech.

Once we operate on this assumption, then other factors should come to play such as J-20's strategic advantages because of design decisions such as Delta Canard Design, bigger range, bigger Radome size and finally bigger missile. F-35 design drawbacks such as trying to do everything on a single airframe, fatter body, Huge single engine should also be discussed.

And based on these factors that we can see and measure, J-20 is a clearly superior plane that is specifically designed for air to air combat compared to F-35 which is a multirole fighter bomber. US tech is no longer magic anymore. China has proven that again and again, Russia Ukraine has also proven that. We should not live on default US superiority anymore.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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(Note that the "fighters" mentioned here does not include attack aircrafts (A-10) and fighter-bombers (JH-7).)

Firstly, I need to make it clear here - If the J-20's annual production rate can reach ~100 units in 2025 (as purported), and that the annual production rate is maintained until the end of 2030, plus assuming that Chengdu can reach 300 units by the end of this year - China having ~900 units of J-20/A by the end of 2030 certainly is a reasonable estimate.

Coupled with the possibility of the land-based variant of the J-35 entering service with the PLAAF in the future increasing - Assuming that happens before the end of this decade, China's annual production rate of 5th-gen fighters could grow higher.

Of course, adding onto that fact that China does need more J-16s (and especially the -D variant), coupled with the expected introduction of 6th-gen J-XDs together with many loyal wingman UCAVs that are at least comparable to modern fighters (at least) to a certain degree by the early-2030s at the latest - The PLAAF's fighter fleet is expected to become pretty massive going forward.

Yet all of the above should be preluded with this question - Is the PLAAF planning to expand its overall fighter fleet considerably? Or is the PLAAF merely replacing older fighters with newer ones while keeping the overall fleet size largely the same? And if the former is the case - Have we seen indications and signs of that happening/starting to happen?

There're indeed still many older fighters in the PLAAF arsenal that await replacement within this decade or so. I certainly wouldn't want PLAAF pilots to keep flying J-11/As (or even god-forbid J-7 family/J-8IIs) to conduct combat missions when there are much better options available. But even these adding up together wouldn't reach more than 600 units.

On the other hand, recall that the USAF by the end of the Cold War (1991) has a staggering 4300+ fighter-fleet - And that's not yet including the USN and USMC. The USAF's present fighter fleet size is slightly above 2/5ths of that.

So, if anything - I do see plenty of room for the PLAAF's fighter fleet size expansion, should those higher-ups at the August-1st Building decides to.
 
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GTI

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On J-20 numbers, I know caution, conservativeness, and thoughtful consideration are key principles for PLA watching, but I think we’re becoming “bed wetters” here.

How many J-20s (constructed, not fielded) did we start 2024 with? Do we all agree that it is ~250-300?

Do we all agree that either 2024 or 2025 will be the first year where production can/will be 80-120 airframes? And importantly, that PLAAF will keep that construction rate going to the end of calendar year 2030?

2024 start = 560 (low) or 840 (high) airframes built as at 31 December 2030

2025 start = 480 (low) or 720 (high) airframes built as at 31 December 2030.

This would mean that as at 31 December 2030, there would be:

Low: 730 (480+250) or 810 (560+250) J-20s
High: 1020 (720+300) or 1140 (840+300) J-20

The only thing we need to be cautious about, is assuming they will keep production from 2024/25 to 2030 at roughly 100 airframes each year, or averaging to 100 airframes per year over those 6 or 7 years. IF SO, I think we can confidently forecast that there will be 900-1000 (+/- 50) J-20s constructed at the end of 2030 (~925 would be sort of an “average of averages”).

NB: For construction hitting 80-120 in 2025 onwards, I decided to leave airframes constructed in 2024 out of the figures above (e.g. if 60 airframes are built in 2024, then it should be 480+250+60=790 instead of 730, or 720+300+60=1080 instead of 1020)
 

Alfa_Particle

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This is too oversimplified. We don't know enough about these planes and their capabilities, RCS, IR signatures, RAM coats, sensors, armaments, escorts, AWACS capabilities, strategies, tactics, etc., to come to these conclusions.
Although I do agree that it was pretty elementary, you can make educated assumptions based on contextual information. For example, judging by the current maturity of the Chinese material science field, IMO, by extension, it is reasonable to assume that Chinese RAM technology is on par with the US. Chinese radar tech is also pretty decent. Heck, the radars on their AEW&C birds are (IIRC, at least) more modern than their US counterparts. My point is, you can't just completely shut something off because “we don't know enough information”- some areas are indeed explorable. And, maybe, we do have enough information for some conclusions.


When you say the J-20 is bigger, and therefore, better, you are assuming both sides are equally capable, technologically speaking. The truth is the US has decades on China in that regard, so even if they are deindustrializing and China is rising fast, it does not constitute reasonable evidence for assuming the US is not capable of producing, or is not currently working on producing a new air superiority fighter that would rival or surpass the J-20 by a significant margin, and mass produce it well before 2030, provided their economy has not collapsed by then.
Your point is slightly confusing. The guy you're replying to is comparing (albeit in a pretty elementary fashion) the J-20 and the F-35, and you brought up NGAD in response. But I would like to address some of your points nonetheless.

The US had decades on China and rolled out their stealth fighters first. That's true, but, the rate of technological advancements/progression between the two countries are not the same, and that's a major consideration. How well the two countries manage their programs are also different.

The rate of technological progression of the two countries is like a guy who sprinted then started to stagger and slow, and a guy who started later but is jogging. We're at the stage where the guy jogging is almost side-by-side with his hand outstretching past the staggering dude. Program management also plays a huge part. Look at the TR-3 program delays, AIM-260 JATM delays, etc. If even the technology is available, can they apply it is an entirely different matter.

On the other hand, we know the Chinese can upgrade their birds with much less hassle. We know the J-20 had gone through avionics refreshes, upgrades in-between production blocks, etc.

I'm not saying the US is incapable of doing so. But it is evident that they can't do it as efficiently.


The F-22A can likely compete with the J-20 in all regards.
Mm, no. Hold its own, maybe (IMHO just barely). But until the Raptors get their MLU, I can't agree with you here.

Keep in mind that the F-22 entered service almost 2 decades ago. That means the technology on it is also (almost) 20 years old. Sure, you can argue that the US was incredibly ahead 20 years ago and that the rest of the world is only catching up now, but with the rate of growth of technology, you can only get ahead so much. Cases in point, you can't find IRST/EODAS systems on the F-22. You can't find state-of-the-art GaN AESAs in the F-22. Etc, etc. Okay, you can argue that they can just upgrade it: the MLU program. Well then I raise you the ‘stellar’ program management of the USAF, or just the US in general. Look at how long they're taking to upgrade the production F-35 to TR-3 spec. Look at the AIM-260 JATM delays. The recent NGAD delay rumors. It's not as easy as it sounds.


The F-35 might be incapable of competing with the J-20, it still lays out the foundation for a next generation air superiority fighter to be produced in a relatively short amount of time. The sensors and tech are almost ready and their issues are being optimized, and so is the incredible F135 engine, and the new Adaptive Cycle engines are already being tested.
Ironically, the F-35 will have a better chance competing with the J-20 than the F-22. As for (I presume you're talking about) the TR-3 almost being ready… I wouldn't put that much confidence in US program management lol. Chances are we'll see delays or program hiccups. The F135 is… Eh. It ‘looks’ incredible on paper, that's about it. In essence, it's anything but groundbreaking and/or incredible. It's basically just an F119 with a higher BPR to produce more thrust. But that leads to a quite hopeless supersonic performance, and considering one of the 4S requirements for 5th Gen fighters are Supercruise (or just supersonic performance in general), I can't say it's incredible. And when you think about it, the F-35 will most likely see most action in the Pacific theater if a conflict between China and the US does break out. That means covering huge spans of distances, preferably fast. Well, you're out of luck for the fast part of you're in a F-35. And yes. The XA100/101 is indeed being tested, but they aren't gonna be in production anytime soon, much less seeing service on the F-35. The Chinese also have respective programs.


It is even possible for the US to pull the YF-23 off the shelf and and optimize it for today's tech. That alone would produce a phenomenal fighter with lower RCS and IR signatures than any fighter on the market, but chances are, they are working on something even better.
I would have a better time believing that Japan will field Mobile Suits in combat than the US reviving the YF-23. /s In all seriousness. No. That's on par, if not more ridiculous than the thought of the US reopening F-22 production lines. I can believe that the NGAD will be better than what the YF-23 could've been though. We'll see how smoothly they can procure it.


f22 is larger than f35, but has lower rcs. The gain you get in additional power and cooling you get from larger aircraft is far more important than RCS. That’s why j31 doesn’t seem great for plaaf to me. It’s not big enough.
Although I'm not saying a larger aircraft is incapable of having a smaller RCS. But do keep in mind that it's understandable for the Raptor to have a larger RCS. After all, caret intakes are a bit hard to work with to reduce RCS. And you don't have composites on the Raptor, either.

The J-31 is just a low-cost, mid-size 5th Gen fighter to work alongside the J-20. After all, the older J-11s, JH-7s, J-10s, do need replacing. The (albeit rumored) much lower cost makes it a pretty sweet replacement. You get a lot of bang for the buck.
 

tphuang

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I don't recall claiming that. I said:

Hence the "roughly same."
you said they have roughly the same capability. One of the major requirement in the future is range. How can you be as good if it has noticeably lower range.

J-20 isn't that much more expensive than flankers at current production rate.

How much capability are you sacrificing going to a smaller aircraft?
 

Alfa_Particle

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you said they have roughly the same capability. One of the major requirement in the future is range. How can you be as good if it has noticeably lower range.

J-20 isn't that much more expensive than flankers at current production rate.

How much capability are you sacrificing going to a smaller aircraft?
Come on now.

I've clearly, explicitly, specified some areas that are different;
Of course, there are inherent trade-offs due to it being a medium-weight fighter. Less fuel capacity, maximum payload, etc. It really depends on what the PLAAF needs.

Range, although a major advantage, is not everything. What about cost?

When I said roughly equal capabilities, I also consider stealth, internal payload, radar and avionics, etc. Then I addressed parts that may not fit as well.

I thought I clearly expressed that, but judging from your reaction, apparently not. So allow me to reiterate it.

The J-31 is rumored to be significantly cheaper than the J-20 to procure, while having similar capabilities in stealth, internal payload (minus the bays for close range AAMs), avionics, radar, etc. However, it being a medium-sized fighter, it's limited in areas such as fuel capacity, maximum payload (no. of external pylons and how heavy they can carry, etc.), etc.

So you get a J-20 with less range but significantly cheaper. It's great for replacing aged aircrafts.

Hopefully this clears it up!
 

Blitzo

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The J-31 is rumored to be significantly cheaper than the J-20 to procure, while having similar capabilities in stealth, internal payload (minus the bays for close range AAMs), avionics, radar, etc. However, it being a medium-sized fighter, it's limited in areas such as fuel capacity, maximum payload (no. of external pylons and how heavy they can carry, etc.), etc.

That's something which has been floating around for five or so years (i.e.: that a "PLAAF version of FC-31 for land based use") may be much cheaper than J-20 to procure and back in the late 2010s the idea of procuring such an aircraft seemed reasonable when J-20 production didn't grow so significantly.

But now that J-20 production has grown to approach three digits, and with no rumours of J-20 production winding down any time in the near future, with J-20A being such a major improvement and potentially having its own improvements in manufacturing and supportability, and in context of the emergence of CCAs/UCAVs, and also with J-XD having its own development cycle potentially reaching fruition later this decade, in the last couple of years, the previous reasonable idea of a land based J-31 being cheaper to procure is now very much in doubt in context of the other active programs of record/programs assumed to be working on, given the opportunity cost of introducing a new aircraft type to the PLAAF which will introduce its own logistics and support demands onto the service, as well as all for a fighter which is more short legged than J-20 family and thus less relevant for the PLA's primary strategic direction.


All of which is to say, in 2024, the status and rationale of a "PLAAF land based FC-31/J-31" is definitely in some doubt, and while it's a factor to keep in mind, we are at a stage where it probably has to justify its own existence somewhat to be brought into the conversation.


So @ChinaWatcher1 and his original question about "why even produce a land based J-31" is probably best answered at this stage with something like "at this stage the rationale for a land based J-31 is rather weak, and even what benefits it may have, pale in context of other current and future procurements we can observe and predict for the PLAAF".
 
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