J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
calm down, no-one reasonable thinks the J-20 is bad or weak but please do not underestimate the F-22, the overall USAF joint/net-working capabilities - it will never be a 1 vs 1 of both fighters - and even more there won‘t be 1000 J-20 by 2030!
The nature of F-22 upgrades - external pods at the expense of their two most prized characteristics (stealth and super cruise), as well as sudden reversals (IR pod after decades of "good radar is good enough") - make this questionable.

Things are clearly wrong with the F-22 if it takes that to MLU it, it's just that there is simply no alternative to them in the meantime.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
calm down, no-one reasonable thinks the J-20 is bad or weak but please do not underestimate the F-22, the overall USAF joint/net-working capabilities - it will never be a 1 vs 1 of both fighters - and even more there won‘t be 1000 J-20 by 2030!
If they are producing 100 J-20 per year, then they should be able to make 600 more J-20 by 2030, combined with 300 J20 that they have now, that's about 900 J-20. So, kinda close to a thousand. I do believe China will keep producing J-20 in high numbers because they have chosen J-20 to be the main fighter for the foreseeble future. I don't think PLAAF will go for a hi lo mix. They are probably going all in on the J-20. So, their final J-20 count could only be extremely high.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
calm down, no-one reasonable thinks the J-20 is bad or weak but please do not underestimate the F-22, the overall USAF joint/net-working capabilities - it will never be a 1 vs 1 of both fighters - and even more there won‘t be 1000 J-20 by 2030!
What are these supposed "USAF joint/net-working capabilities" you talk about? You think China does not have their own equivalent of Link 16 and the other components in the US toolkit like AEW&C and ELINT or what? Surely you know better than this.
You should pretty much assume all the J-10C, J-16, J-20 aircraft can perform joint operations and seamlessly share target data with each other.

His estimate of 1000 J-20 fighters is not totally far fetched either. Just replacing the J-11, Su-27, Su-30, Su-35 will be like 500 extra aircraft.

The nature of F-22 upgrades - external pods at the expense of their two most prized characteristics (stealth and super cruise), as well as sudden reversals (IR pod after decades of "good radar is good enough") - make this questionable.
Having a ventral IR pod for tracking opposing aircraft is also high suboptimal.

Things are clearly wrong with the F-22 if it takes that to MLU it, it's just that there is simply no alternative to them in the meantime.
The F-22 is a technological dead end. It is a good design for its time. But because it wasn't produced in high enough numbers it makes a lot of programs you could put in place to upgrade it not cost effective. Its electronics are also pretty much obsolete. For crying out loud its avionics use Intel i960MX RISC processors.
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Deino

Lieutenant General
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Guys ... calm down! I never said it is far fetched nor that the PLAAF does not have similar capabilities and in the same way I do not overhype the USAF, but this constant and IMO too simplified focus on "numbers" is wrong and misleading.
Also this similar naive downrating of the F-22's capabilities is naive and dangerous.

Yes, 1000 J-20 are possible, but do they makes sense? IMO no ... there are many other factors we need to put into the equation like how the 6th gen. fighter progresses, if the PLAAF also decides to introduce the J-31 (IMO at least some arguments speak for this option).

But hey, if you think its fine just to feel good since the F-22 it is a "dead end" has "totally outdated electronics", "numbers are irrelevant", "its missile have a shorter range" and so on then it may be.

My stance is, regardless of all we know and assume, we still don't know enough on the J-20's capabilities. Also, the US military always has some surprises at hand and to think a simple comparison of this vs that and the J-20 wins on all accounts so it will be an easy turkey shooting, is most dangerous and naive.

Let's hope we'll never find out who's right.
 

ChinaWatcher1

New Member
Registered Member
Guys ... calm down! I never said it is far fetched nor that the PLAAF does not have similar capabilities and in the same way I do not overhype the USAF, but this constant and IMO too simplified focus on "numbers" is wrong and misleading.
Also this similar naive downrating of the F-22's capabilities is naive and dangerous.

Yes, 1000 J-20 are possible, but do they makes sense? IMO no ... there are many other factors we need to put into the equation like how the 6th gen. fighter progresses, if the PLAAF also decides to introduce the J-31 (IMO at least some arguments speak for this option).

But hey, if you think its fine just to feel good since the F-22 it is a "dead end" has "totally outdated electronics", "numbers are irrelevant", "its missile have a shorter range" and so on then it may be.

My stance is, regardless of all we know and assume, we still don't know enough on the J-20's capabilities. Also, the US military always has some surprises at hand and to think a simple comparison of this vs that and the J-20 wins on all accounts so it will be an easy turkey shooting, is most dangerous and naive.

Let's hope we'll never find out who's right.
Why would we even produce a land based J-31? Isn't it also an air superiority fighter like J-20? Also by the way can't J-20 have any ground/sea strike ammunition in its weapon bay? AFAIK its weapons bay is larger than F-35
 

Alfa_Particle

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why would we even produce a land based J-31? Isn't it also an air superiority fighter like J-20? Also by the way can't J-20 have any ground/sea strike ammunition in its weapon bay? AFAIK its weapons bay is larger than F-35
Apparently, rumors from the grapevine said that the J-31/35 is much cheaper with roughly equal capabilities. Note that they're expected to have a weapons bay identical to the J-20's.

Of course, there are inherent trade-offs due to it being a medium-weight fighter. Less fuel capacity, maximum payload, etc. It really depends on what the PLAAF needs.

As for the volume of the bay, if the J-20 really does have a bigger IWB than the F-35 (which I'm not sure about right now but it's definitely possible), it could be because the J-20's bay is wider but more shallow.
 

banjex

Junior Member
Registered Member
For crying out loud its avionics use Intel i960MX RISC processors.
Military electronics are usually far behind the latest and shiniest consumer grade stuff. And wait till you find out what kind of electronics they used for the space race in the 60s! Point is, this is widespread, well known and isn't necessarily instructive.

What are these supposed "USAF joint/net-working capabilities" you talk about? You think China does not have their own equivalent of Link 16 and the other components in the US toolkit like AEW&C and ELINT or what? Surely you know better than this.
You should pretty much assume all the J-10C, J-16, J-20 aircraft can perform joint operations and seamlessly share target data with each other.
What he's saying is that the OP's platform vs. platform comparison (a fanboy favorite) is useless. Which clearly you understand as well, but you misunderstood Deino's response.
 

iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Experts have called F-35 a fat turkey. When J-20 and F-35 fight, it will no longer be a long range BVR fight due to stealth from both sides. This is where J-20 advantages will be obvious. Its delta Canard design is significantly more manuverable than F-35. Delta Canard design is also better in terms of supersonic manuverablity. So, it can evade BVR missiles better. Being better at manuverability is not just about winning dogfights. Its also about evading BVR missiles. Modern BVR battles are all about firing your missiles and then using manuverability to evade your opponents missiles. This is where J-20 will have the advantage.

J-20 is also significantly bigger, which means it will have a bigger Radar. It will have bigger ECM capability. That means it can detect F-35 much earlier. J-20 also has a much bigger missile in the PL-15, which means it can carry more fuel and thus have bigger range or bigger no escape zone. J-20 also has DAS and IRST, so it can detect F-35 without using Radar.

I think F-35 has absolutely no chance against the J-20. Its a simply handicapped design due to its original mission which was being a second rate fighter bomber. When US designed the F-35, they didn't even think China could be a peer opponent. So, they designed a compromised design focusing on cost reduction. That has made F-35 a terrible Air superiority fighter. F-35 was never designed to be a top line fighter. The top line fighter for US is F-22. But its now terribly outdated. They might be able to upgrade it somehow. But 150 F-22 will do nothing against 1000 J-20 that will be online by 2030.

This is too oversimplified. We don't know enough about these planes and their capabilities, RCS, IR signatures, RAM coats, sensors, armaments, escorts, AWACS capabilities, strategies, tactics, etc., to come to these conclusions.

These "experts" are just guesstimating. Even if they solid modelled the planes like all these "studies" we see online, it still doesn't give the full picture. The solid models do not take into account tolerances and manufacturing imperfections. They don't take into account how clean and well taken care of the or even what type of RAM coat is applied or the quality of riveting. No one can tell what these planes are capable of without having a serial production variant on hand and a multi billion dollar lab to test them.

When you say the J-20 is bigger, and therefore, better, you are assuming both sides are equally capable, technologically speaking. The truth is the US has decades on China in that regard, so even if they are deindustrializing and China is rising fast, it does not constitute reasonable evidence for assuming the US is not capable of producing, or is not currently working on producing a new air superiority fighter that would rival or surpass the J-20 by a significant margin, and mass produce it well before 2030, provided their economy has not collapsed by then.

The F-22A can likely compete with the J-20 in all regards. The F-35 might be incapable of competing with the J-20, it still lays out the foundation for a next generation air superiority fighter to be produced in a relatively short amount of time. The sensors and tech are almost ready and their issues are being optimized, and so is the incredible F135 engine, and the new Adaptive Cycle engines are already being tested.

It is even possible for the US to pull the YF-23 off the shelf and and optimize it for today's tech. That alone would produce a phenomenal fighter with lower RCS and IR signatures than any fighter on the market, but chances are, they are working on something even better.

Here is the only thing we know for sure. The next decade will produce some very tasty fruits for military watchers.
 
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tphuang

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Apparently, rumors from the grapevine said that the J-31/35 is much cheaper with roughly equal capabilities. Note that they're expected to have a weapons bay identical to the J-20's.

Of course, there are inherent trade-offs due to it being a medium-weight fighter. Less fuel capacity, maximum payload, etc. It really depends on what the PLAAF needs.

As for the volume of the bay, if the J-20 really does have a bigger IWB than the F-35 (which I'm not sure about right now but it's definitely possible), it could be because the J-20's bay is wider but more shallow.
I don't see how J-31/35 can have the same range as J-20
 
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