J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

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Air Force Brat

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The two J-20s involved were simulating Okinawa stationed F-22s interfering during aerial combat over the Taiwan Strait. The J-10Cs/J-11Bs, under AWAC guidance, approached the J-20s to visually identify and escort them from the combat zone. Dogfights ensued after visual confirmation.

The article stated that neither the J-10C nor the J-11B would've stood much of a chance if the J-20s opened fire beyond visual range. Also keep in mind that the J-10Cs/J-11Bs enjoyed support from AWACs, electronic warfare planes, and ground-based radar support.

wouldn't you love to have the video of that cat-fight Mr. Crossbow?? do you think it was like "Top Gun" ??? I'd love to know how they managed the merge, and have NO DOUBT, that the F-22's/J-20's made the first aggressive move, they were the "BAD GUYS"!! I love it!
 

Air Force Brat

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I think I know what you're saying, but comparing it with 051C is awkward, and making parallels between ships and aircraft is always dicey given the different nature of the key subsystems that make up their respective capability.

In the case of 051C, it was a ship that was only produced in a pair for a heap of reasons but perhaps first and foremost because it was a less risky air defence destroyer alternative if 052C faced major issues. As it was, 051C suffered from a variety of deficiencies ranging from its old steam turbine propulsion, using a less than ideal air defense system (foreign, lacking 360 degree PAR coverage), with other questionable design choices inherent to the pair (such no helicopter hangar as space taken up by the air defense system).

J-20 on the other hand, is an aircraft whose subsystems are virtually all or are soon to be all indigenously sourced. It is also not the "lower risk" alternative as 051C was to 052C, but rather J-20 is the only heavy weight stealth fighter the PLA will be buying in the near future.
Furthermore, any deficiencies that exist within the current J-20 variant will likely be corrected in future variants in an iterative manner in a far simpler way than it would've been to try to make a further variant of 051C.

Instead, I would say that the current J-20 variant (let's call it J-20A) would be more similar to 052C rather than 051C -- i.e.: not a "test bed" but rather the first design of a stealth fighter that they will produce in a decent (but not large) number that will provide key new capabilities in an operationally useful way, before moving onto a more "complete" variant (e.g.: having WS-15 and perhaps other iterative advancements) that will likely be produced in a larger number, like 052D.

So I agree that they probably won't produce many hundreds of the current J-20A variant, but I also think that they will produce enough such that they won't merely be "test aircraft" but rather form the core of an operationally useful stealth fighter capability, to be followed up with by a more complete J-20 variant with WS-15 engines and other improvements that will be mass produced in the longer term. Of course, if WS-15 is significantly delayed I imagine J-20A production using interim engines (Al31 or WS-10 variant) to continue for longer in which case more J-20As may be produced than otherwise expected.

If I had to compare the current J-20A to a PLA ship class, I would say it is best compared to 052C, with a follow on "J-20B" (with WS-15s etc) likely to be the equivalent of 052D -- but even such a comparison is not perfect.

Yep, he's right, the J-20A will ramp up to full production when they have the kinks worked out, in fact, I will not be a bit surprised if they don't come back and retrofit all those J-20A's with the WS-15, recall the inlets were reduced in size to accommodate the AL-31FN's...

The fact that J-20's are now operating as the aggressors, bringing them in close for the mix-up is indicative of just how happy they are with this bird, and those J-20 drivers no doubt will be ready to take names and kick some butt on the next set???
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Leaving aside the cost of J-20 (which is yet to be determined by rumours let alone what its long term cost may be once in larger batch production) -- the combat scenario described was one where the orange force J-20s were essentially unable to leverage their stealth and BVR advantages, and were only permitted to engage the red force 5th gen fighters once they'd entered visual range.

And all this required support of AEW&C and EW aircraft for the 4th gen J-10s and J-11s to have a fighting chance to even get into visual range of the orange J-20s in the first place -- and even then the 4th gen fighters only managed to eke out a win in WVR.


In a true, equal sided combat scenario where the 5th gen aircraft were able to make use of their rf stealth and BVR weapons, the scenario would've likely ended much differently.

Yes Sir, that's absolutely correct!
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
This actually gives us a bigger and more important question regarding the Su-57 mass production cancellation. Did the Russians delay the Su-57 mass production not because their Su-57 sucked or because the Russians didn't have the money, but because stealth aircraft weren't significantly superior to 4th gens with proper supporting assets?
That would be a very niche argument as it's centered around the SU57.

The problem with the argument you are trying to make is that it assumes that the SU57 can represent all fifth generation fighters in all aspects. This is an unqualified statement.
As there is no absolute way to measure that SU57 in all aspects equals J20 or F22 or F35. The same for any other on the list save for F22 And F35 as they are operated by the same Government.
And as others have pointed out this exercise was one sided by ROE to the conventional fighters.
 

Inst

Captain
Supposedly in American tests between F-15 and F-16 with AEW&C cover, vs F-22 without AEW&C cover, the 4th gens won out.

In practice, counterstealth AEW&C helps a lot vs 4th gen as well, because counterstealth AEW&C tends to be much of a brute force solution; i.e, E-2D, using the relative aperture size, and assuming its AESA is state of the art GaAs, should have around 1100 km detection range vs 0 dBsm, i.e, J-11s and J-10s. Moreover, given that it's an emitter, the possibility lies that stealth fighters could completely avoid activating their radars and use the AEW&C's tracking to guide missiles.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Which exercise and what were the ROE? Were these early on or recent? Were the Raptor drivers allowed to move as they wished and hunt or were they on the defensive?.

actually the Brother is "off topic" as usual, has no source, anyway Gent's this is the J-20 thread as I recall, and the Chinese 4 Gens got the drop on the J-20's, only after the J-20's surrendered the L/O advantage and came in for a visual intercept...at which point it was a "knife fight", the J-10's and J-11's edging out the J-20, did they go "Guns UP" or some type of short range AAM??

I have no doubt that China and Russia are working to defeat the L/O advantage, but to this point, I'm rather certain that they've not achieved the type of success necessary to counter the OPFOR's aircraft...

Now they may be able to pick up their own L/O aircraft, but there's no doubt in my mind that they are far from chinking the armor of a real 5 gen, and I will say up front that not everyone's L/O aircraft have achieved the desired signature reduction necessary to operate freely.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
Supposedly in American tests between F-15 and F-16 with AEW&C cover, vs F-22 without AEW&C cover, the 4th gens won out.
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Apologies for going OT here:

I've heard the complete opposite. F-22 almost always takes out the AEW&C. The moment that happens the F-15 and F-16 are sitting ducks in BVR. F-22 is a silent hunter. Systems like the AN/ALR-94 allows it to sneak up on opposing aircraft without using its radar. AEW&C running its radar at full power is like a lighthouse illuminating to the passive systems on the F-22. Same goes to the F-35. J-20 and even the J-16 supposed have such a 360' passive sniffer. They sniff for emission of other aircrafts and unlike the radar has 360' coverage. Off-course it does not have the precision of an X-Band radar but the computer plots an optimal route for the pilot. By the time AEW&C detects the F-22 it is usually too late. The only option for F-15 and F-16 is hoping the countermeasure and evasive maneuvers can dodge the incoming AIM-120 and force the F-22 into WVR. I've heard 2x F-15, 2x F-16 supported by an E-3 gets blown out by 2x F-22. One F-22 deliberately makes itself visible while another silently takes out the AEW&C.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
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Photo of the original article in the Chinese Air Force magazine.

iy25bN4.jpg
 
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