J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[Air Force Brat]

Because of longstanding ideological and strategic conflict, narratives of past oppression and current threat, along with xenophobia, prejudice, and good old fashioned "us verses them" tribalism; we cannot ignore the lingering resentment and distrust between many people in the West and in China.

In the age of internet message boards, people of different opinions and backgrounds all mixing together can either polarize them even more, or it can help them learn about each other and expand mutual understanding and respect. To go the second path we must let go of ego and eschew antagonism for its own sake.

With firsthand experience of how toxic "discussions" between Chinese and Westerners can become, I do think the tide is now finally starting to turn. On topics related to China, Western commentators are often very contextually ignorant, excessively critical, and sometimes clearly racist/misinformed. Chinese commentators on the other hand tend to have excessive nationalist sensitivities and are conditioned to constantly be on the defensive. Luckily we've kept the worst of it off this forum thanks to the efforts of the mods and the pool of long time users.

When we look at the latest batch of pics of J20, I think everyone can quit their bickering for a minute and appreciate a beautiful piece of engineering.

Amen to all of that Brother, and you have put it far more eloquently and succinctly than I ever could, I had all those bad attitudes lying around in a pool of prejuduice of my own, but I have done my best to listen, and care here on the SDF....

Now to my many friends, I have at times un-knowingly, ignorantly offended, thank you to those who took the time to PM me, and thoughtfully, articulately put forth your position, and been patient with me!

Those of you who know me, know that the "Brat" is part of who I am??? He is my alter ego, occasionally out of hand, but willing to be fair.

Thanks for this post, the SDF is a special warm café, where we can gather for some fellowship, banter back and forth, but at the end of each day, realize we must be Brothers. I wish each of you nothing but the very best, even those of you who don't always agree with me, I pray that you know I have great thoughts and affection toward each of you!

as important on this thread, the J-20 is a very serious airplane, that has brought China into this new Century, and should and does garner respect, and I hope for my Chinese Brothers a sense of pride and a belonging into the "international community"!

 

[Blackstone]

Because of longstanding ideological and strategic conflict, narratives of past oppression and current threat, along with xenophobia, prejudice, and good old fashioned "us verses them" tribalism; we cannot ignore the lingering resentment and distrust between many people in the West and in China.

In the age of internet message boards, people of different opinions and backgrounds all mixing together can either polarize them even more, or it can help them learn about each other and expand mutual understanding and respect. To go the second path we must let go of ego and eschew antagonism for its own sake.

With firsthand experience of how toxic "discussions" between Chinese and Westerners can become, I do think the tide is now finally starting to turn. On topics related to China, Western commentators are often very contextually ignorant, excessively critical, and sometimes clearly racist/misinformed. Chinese commentators on the other hand tend to have excessive nationalist sensitivities and are conditioned to constantly be on the defensive. Luckily we've kept the worst of it off this forum thanks to the efforts of the mods and the pool of long time users.

When we look at the latest batch of pics of J20, I think everyone can quit their bickering for a minute and appreciate a beautiful piece of engineering.

Well said, stibyssip. Kudos!

 

[FORBIN]

Amen to all of that Brother, and you have put it far more eloquently and succinctly than I ever could, I had all those bad attitudes lying around in a pool of prejuduice of my own, but I have done my best to listen, and care here on the SDF....

Now to my many friends, I have at times un-knowingly, ignorantly offended, thank you to those who took the time to PM me, and thoughtfully, articulately put forth your position, and been patient with me!

Those of you who know me, know that the "Brat" is part of who I am??? He is my alter ego, occasionally out of hand, but willing to be fair.

Thanks for this post, the SDF is a special warm café, where we can gather for some fellowship, banter back and forth, but at the end of each day, realize we must be Brothers. I wish each of you nothing but the very best, even those of you who don't always agree with me, I pray that you know I have great thoughts and affection toward each of you!

as important on this thread, the J-20 is a very serious airplane, that has brought China into this new Century, and should and does garner respect, and I hope for my Chinese Brothers a sense of pride and a belonging into the "international community"!

Yes but with few infos we have with China the trend may be logically under-estimate and it is not our fault in Western.

Talk more Chinese

 

[flyzies]

Talk more Chinese

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
There is a very wide range of information on all aspects of China, but almost all of it is in Chinese...and in the words of Lyle Goldstein, "the Chinese language is China's first line of defence." As such, I don't know how it can be possible for someone to be considered an "expert" on anything China related unless they can speak Chinese.
Hence why most Western commentators can seem to be (as stibyssip said) "very contextually ignorant, excessively critical, and sometimes clearly racist/misinformed" as they can't read Chinese and will only see China through their own lens.

 

[weig2000]

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
There is a very wide range of information on all aspects of China, but almost all of it is in Chinese...and in the words of Lyle Goldstein, "the Chinese language is China's first line of defence." As such, I don't know how it can be possible for someone to be considered an "expert" on anything China related unless they can speak Chinese.
Hence why most Western commentators can seem to be (as stibyssip said) "very contextually ignorant, excessively critical, and sometimes clearly racist/misinformed" as they can't read Chinese and will only see China through their own lens.

Indeed, I remember a few years ago I was listening to a panel discussion session on Chinese military hosted by a US think tank (forgot which one; CSIS?). One of the panelist, apparently proficient in Chinese himself, commenting about Chinese transparency in military affairs, said China is actually quite transparent about these kinds of stuff, even more transparent than "democratic India or Japan." The trick is you need to understand Chinese in order to access these information, which can be obtained publicly 80% of the time. And Chinese language is their first line of defense.

I didn't bother to save that discussion, but judging by the sound of it, the speaker might even be Lyle Goldstein himself if your quote above is accurate. Some of the better China analysts, such Andrew Erickson, are quite proficient in Chinese. Therefore their analysis tend to be higher quality and more objective. Another good example, Henry Kenhmann, the French guy who provides regular online Chinese military analysis in his blog site, speaks Chinese and collects much of his information from Chinese sources. His information is quite up to date and analysis very timely.

 

[ahho]

You don't mean CSIS as in "

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"

 

[weig2000]

You don't mean CSIS as in "

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"

Nah,

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[vesicles]

I think we in the scientific community face a similar problem. The general public typically have a misled impression of what science is. Some people actually compiled news footages on how media misinterpret our findings. You can find plenty of them on you tube. These misinterpretations can be either too optimistic (we have found cure for cancer!) or too pessimistic to the level of demonizing science (scientists are making monsters that will eventually destroy mankind...).

Whose fault is it? Do we expect the general public somehow acquire in-depth understanding of science and begin to understand our findings on their own! Absolutely not! It is on us. We the scientists need to do a better job of explaining our work to the general public because we are the ones who actually understand what we are doing.

Similarly, if it is truly the language issue with how the western media portrays the Chinese military, economic and social issues, then the Chinese should do a better job of making these materials available to the world. You cannot expect the westerners to magically begin to master the Chinese language. It is on the Chinese to convey their information better. This would be done by either translating the info from Chinese sources or doing a better job getting westerners interested in Chinese language.

 

[FORBIN]

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
There is a very wide range of information on all aspects of China, but almost all of it is in Chinese...and in the words of Lyle Goldstein, "the Chinese language is China's first line of defence." As such, I don't know how it can be possible for someone to be considered an "expert" on anything China related unless they can speak Chinese.

LOL and completely wrong

 

[taxiya]

Yes but with few infos we have with China the trend may be logically under-estimate and it is not our fault in Western.

Talk more Chinese

<JOKE>
Of course, it is not westerner's fault not getting information about China. It is the Chinese fault not speaking English, French etc.
Even if Chinese do speak English or French, they are just propagandas in different languages.
</JOKE>
Don't misunderstand me.

Seriously, it is not only language itself, but background knowledge that makes the words between lines. It is true in all society. So even one can understand literal meaning of every word, one may not get what the article really conveys. Typical example is the HOT debate about "清真" cafeteria aboard CV-16. I choose not to give the English translation of the Chinese word, because it was exactly the problem of missing background information that I am saying.