J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

[Dizasta1]

In a time where recession and austerity a spoken in the same breath, the one common denominator which raises eyebrows about the F-35 is its cost. As the days pass by, the cost rockets skyward for the jet. Giving an example of Turkey holds hardly any water. Turkey, like few countries who're doing economically well, is no stranger to spending money building up its military. Countries like China, Venezuela, Russia and hindia, are spending billions to build their military.

 

[MiG-29]

But You surely will agree that the 117S is de facto a "heavily modified development" of the trusted AL-31F-family incorporating technology from but it is not a version - as the name might suggest - of the true AL-41, which was used in the MFI prototype !

Deino

According to what Russian sources say, 117S the one powering Su-35 is indeed a Al-31 incorporating all the technical features of AL-41 that were innovative.

So the engine is a hybrid, by hybrid means not a mixture but a further evolution of both Al-31s and Al-41
This article is an interview of Victor Chepkin one of the head designers of 117 and Al-41, he explains it

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.

117 powering T-50 is even a further modernization of that engine.

However they are not the same engine, Al-31M2 is a derivative variant of Al-31 with the same thrust of 117S.


So Al-31M2 is a very powerful engine as powerful as 117, it is an Al-31 but with technical features of 117S

see this is official literature from Saturn

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The engine to fly in 2014 will be a total new engine

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So existence of Al-31M2 shows 117S is not an Al-31.
The engine is a very modified engines to the level they are called 117S and AL-31M2 still is considered an Al-31 variant.

 

[MiG-29]

Thanks for the sweet satellite photos guys, that's the kind of thing I've been looking for from this forum. I'll shut up about its size now.

On the F-35... it's nowhere near being canceled. Turkey just up and bought a few more C models, and South Korea is considering it for their fighter competition as well.
When it comes to dogfighting, it has an ace up its sleeve that no other craft has at the moment...

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Sure, EODAS probably won't be the trump card it is claimed to be by the engineers who built it, but it does give Ace Combat levels of situational awareness, which greatly aid the OODA loop when dogfighting, and also in many other situations.
The technology is far ahead of any other IR system on any other fighter. And when it comes to manuverability, the F-35 doesn't have the TVC of the Raptor, but still manages to out turn the aircraft it's replacing, if only by a bit.

yes, you are right, EOADS in dogfight will make it a very tough opponent

 

[FirstImpulse]

Frankly speaking, I do not trust anything the developer had claimed to be and was shown to the public...

As to whether the technology is far ahead of any other IR system on any other fighter, that is a big sentense to use, because none of us here knows, unless you have first hand information and hands on experience on the American's F-35, Chinese J-20/ J-31, Russian's T-50/ Su-35 and even European's Typhoon and French Rafale. No one knew, all was claimed by developer (see my example).

Name one other aircraft that has 360 degree IR coverage fused with the other sensors on the airplane, which can do the following: track multiple targets in a dogfight, be able to see a window-sized ground target from 40+ miles out, and even track ballistic missiles. The T-50 still uses OLS. The Typhoon/Rafale have good misile defense/warning systems, but nothing compared to this. The bottom line is that the technology the the Lightening is far beyond any other jet in this particular area.

In a time where recession and austerity a spoken in the same breath, the one common denominator which raises eyebrows about the F-35 is its cost. As the days pass by, the cost rockets skyward for the jet. Giving an example of Turkey holds hardly any water. Turkey, like few countries who're doing economically well, is no stranger to spending money building up its military. Countries like China, Venezuela, Russia and hindia, are spending billions to build their military.

Should I give more examples? The Netherlands? Israel? Singapore? Dude, this plane won't be going away. XD
The costs for the F-35 are quite high at the moment, just as the costs for most pre-production items are. For example, the prototype Scion FR-S sports car was put together at a cost of over 300,000 USD. Even though the production versions are rolling off the lines and selling for less than a tenth of that. Economies of scale are an interesting thing. I do doubt the F-35 will ever be as low as a Flanker, but there is a generational gap of capability between them.
What are the costs for the PAKFA and J-20? I've only heard seemingly unrealistic Flanker-like quotes for the T-50, and nothing whatsoever of the J-20.

 

[kroko]

T-50 does not fly with Al-31s, it flies with a modern engine called 117, which is different to both 117S powering Su-35 and Al-31M2, by 2016 is supposed it will fly with the definitive type 30.

what is the thrust of this engine in terms of kg ?

 

[rhino123]

Name one other aircraft that has 360 degree IR coverage fused with the other sensors on the airplane, which can do the following: track multiple targets in a dogfight, be able to see a window-sized ground target from 40+ miles out, and even track ballistic missiles. The T-50 still uses OLS. The Typhoon/Rafale have good misile defense/warning systems, but nothing compared to this. The bottom line is that the technology the the Lightening is far beyond any other jet in this particular area.

I would not pretend to know alot on this issue. What I am saying is that... do you know what is the IR package of J-20, J-31, T-50? Everything about them, every single aspect? And are you that 100% sure that those aircrafts or its near future development that do not have what F-35 claimed to have? Or have the Chinese, the Russian and the Europeans came out straight and tell the world that they do not have what F-35 claimed?

All the above questions are legit.

And like I have said before, being an engineer working for a company, of course I will claim that my company's product is the best in the field. Who in his right mind would come out telling people that his company product sucks big time?

All that was thrown out there are all mumbo jumbo that one can easily picked up in brochure and really holds very little ground unless YOU fly all the said aircraft and can tell people that one is better than the other... or else, we leave those comparing and versus to other threads and focus on J-20 ONLY.

 

[MiG-29]

what is the thrust of this engine in terms of kg ?

it supposes to be in the 17-18 tonnes thrust, no official specification released yet, they only say it will weigh 30% less than Al-31

 

[Hyperwarp]

what is the thrust of this engine in terms of kg ?

About 16,000 kgf (157 kN) according to Piotr Butowski IIRC. I've heard of rumours about Saturn & Salut competing for the engine between 16,500 kgf to 18,000 kgf.

 

[jobjed]

F-35 and J-31 both have small wings, the J-31 a more boxy fuselage and it is powered by old RD-93 for a total of 16000kg thrust, to think it will out perform a F-35 is so funny, basicly have the same design, just two engines because China has not engines suitable like F-135 and has to settle the design with RD-33 and it hopes it can reach the output yield of F-135 with perhaps two new engines.

Pretty Much both are Penguins

Cool, now quote me where I said the J-31 will outperform the F-35. QUOTE me, understand?

 

[MiG-29]

Cool, now quote me where I said the J-31 will outperform the F-35. QUOTE me, understand?

No need to quote you simply i said both are low performance Jets, in fact i said with RD-33s the thrust to weight power of J-31 is lower than F-35, and it means a very limited weapons role.

I said both are penguins, meaning both are pretty much the same.

All the flaws you see in F-35 are there in J-31, small wing, large cross section.
pretty much with RD-33s the J-31 must have an appalling low thrust to weight ratio.

The posibility J-31 will perform better than F-35 is low.

If radars continue increasing their reliability, i bet a Rafale will club J-31s as easy will do F-35s.

The only hope for F-35 and J-31 is that stealth continues working and J-20 and F-22 still outperform other jets and SAMs.

Otherwise i bet my money on Rafale, Neuron and Cassidian new passive radar as F-35 and J-31 masters