J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

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FirstImpulse

New Member
I would not pretend to know alot on this issue. What I am saying is that... do you know what is the IR package of J-20, J-31, T-50? Everything about them, every single aspect? And are you that 100% sure that those aircrafts or its near future development that do not have what F-35 claimed to have? Or have the Chinese, the Russian and the Europeans came out straight and tell the world that they do not have what F-35 claimed?

All the above questions are legit.

And like I have said before, being an engineer working for a company, of course I will claim that my company's product is the best in the field. Who in his right mind would come out telling people that his company product sucks big time?

All that was thrown out there are all mumbo jumbo that one can easily picked up in brochure and really holds very little ground unless YOU fly all the said aircraft and can tell people that one is better than the other...

If you honestly believe that, then why are you on a forum which deals exclusively with things that no one here has touched?
I know that a base Corvette is a higher performance car than a base Camaro. I don't need to see blueprints for either to realize that. Just a horsepower rating, a weight, and cornering G rate. Not rocket science. If it was, then why bother reading about something?
 

FirstImpulse

New Member
No need to quote you simply i said both are low performance Jets, in fact i said with RD-33s the thrust to weight power of J-31 is lower than F-35, and it means a very limited weapons role.

I said both are penguins, meaning both are pretty much the same.

All the flaws you see in F-35 are there in J-31, small wing, large cross section.
pretty much with RD-33s the J-31 must have an appalling low thrust to weight ratio.

The posibility J-31 will perform better than F-35 is low.

If radars continue increasing their reliability, i bet a Rafale will club J-31s as easy will do F-35s.

The only hope for F-35 and J-31 is that stealth continues working and J-20 and F-22 still outperform other jets and SAMs.

Otherwise i bet my money on Rafale, Neuron and Cassidian new passive radar as F-35 and J-31 masters

Air force Brat

I never said i am an expert, pretty much i am just a fan, as a fan, i just have read what cassidian has said and claimed

passive radar" that can locate even difficult-to-detect flying objects such as stealth aircraft and that itself is practically undetectable.
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As a fan i wonder how do Cassidian knows their radar can work against stealth aircraft?
So as a fan, i can think if i believe what cassidian says is true, then it means Europe can detect F-35, J-31 and even J-20 and F-22, and obviously T-50.
So i am not saying my opinion is right, just if Cassidian is right, the possibility a Rafale detecting a stealth target or and Eurofighter is very high specially now that rafale has AESA radar
And Sorry, up to what i know in close combat Rafale and Eurofighter claim they have beaten the F-22 in mock combat.

So my opinion was then the J-31 and F-35 won`t be harder.

If you want to believe Europe has that ability is up to you, i just said they claim that.

According to this video, Europe`s selex can develop effective passive radars.
[video=youtube;4-W2J5KF2OU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-W2J5KF2OU&feature=player_embedded[/video]
If Europe has that ability or not is always up to the reader now, but that is a possibility it maybe true.

Will J-20 be effective against cassidian latest radar? well i do not know only time will tell
If you decide you want to believe lockheed martin is also up to you, i just said is possible cassidian is telling the true

This "passive radar" stuff is very new to me. Extremely interesting. Because it "gleans" signals from the surrounding area it has a somewhat limited use I would expect, but in certain situations it could be game-changing. Wouldn't hold my breath for it to detect a 5th generation fighter though. From what I've heard, not even the APG-81 on the F-35 with all its tricks can detect a Raptor or F-35 at any decent range (although it can detect and jam the Raptor's radar). And something like this would require a huge amount of ambient EM to detect something that had any type of RAM or stealth shaping applied to it.

Here's a question: is this Passive Radar similar to the PESA on the new Flankers?
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
If you honestly believe that, then why are you on a forum which deals exclusively with things that no one here has touched?
I know that a base Corvette is a higher performance car than a base Camaro. I don't need to see blueprints for either to realize that. Just a horsepower rating, a weight, and cornering G rate. Not rocket science. If it was, then why bother reading about something?

Funny... if you think that this forum is just for (unless I misunderstand your meaning for 'deals exclusively') things that no one here has touched, then you are in the wrong forum.

There are things that can be explained in science (physics and stuff like that) and some thing don't even need people to read brochure on. And there are other that are advertised by manufacturers. You would need to really get that straight and not just dump every single thing in here.

(PS. as for your example... you are giving something really clear cut... but I would not use that... so what if you compare a Toyota Camry with a Honda Accord? Which is the better performer? In my country, both cars are selling at about the same price, Toyota salesman said that their car is the best, while Honda salesman said that theirs are the best. So are you just going to believe the brochure and salesman, or are you going to test drive both car and decide for yourself?)

Also... the radar, avonic package in T-50, J-31 and J-20 is pretty secretive (plus these aircrafts had not fly and there are limited to no information on these systems, except for would be analysts, guesswork and fanboys claims) so, how in the world can someone compare anything base of these information and said that the other system (eg. F-22 and F-35) being superior or the best in the world?

Like I say, I don't believe in what salesmen said and I take brochure with a big grain of salt. Also I don't claim big... like some aircraft had the best IR or whatever package, when I have not fly that aircraft or whatever aircrafts that stuff is competiting against.

It is like someone here claiming that TVC is the answer to everything, but there are others who slam that idea... with supporting documents and claims and the debates goes on... this can be interesting read.

So if you are unsure of how this forum works, I suggest you go read up abit and quit suggesting someone to not be in this particularly fine forum.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Looks like maybe a recent sat pic at Chengdu. Seems like someone is hiring commercial satellite companies to keep a watch.

27_250079_a36f01c61ef88fc_zps83b24270.png
 

FirstImpulse

New Member
There are things that can be explained in science (physics and stuff like that) and some thing don't even need people to read brochure on. And there are other that are advertised by manufacturers. You would need to really get that straight and not just dump every single thing in here.

(PS. as for your example... you are giving something really clear cut... but I would not use that... so what if you compare a Toyota Camry with a Honda Accord? Which is the better performer? In my country, both cars are selling at about the same price, Toyota salesman said that their car is the best, while Honda salesman said that theirs are the best. So are you just going to believe the brochure and salesman, or are you going to test drive both car and decide for yourself?)

Also... the radar, avonic package in T-50, J-31 and J-20 is pretty secretive (plus these aircrafts had not fly and there are limited to no information on these systems, except for would be analysts, guesswork and fanboys claims) so, how in the world can someone compare anything base of these information and said that the other system (eg. F-22 and F-35) being superior or the best in the world?

Like I say, I don't believe in what salesmen said and I take brochure with a big grain of salt. Also I don't claim big... like some aircraft had the best IR or whatever package, when I have not fly that aircraft or whatever aircrafts that stuff is competiting against.

Who wants to compare a Camry and an Accord? The same guys who would debate merits of the A400M and C-17? lol
Numbers, logic, and history are enough to make some very decent comparisons. And even when you don't have one of those, the other two can get you very close to the mark. However, not being able to hear from pilots about the J-20's handling is a handicap.

Forgive me, but didn't MiG-29 just post some promotional material as well? It made some somewhat far-out claims as well, and I stated my skepticism and my reasons for it. If you have one or a few points of skepticism on the EODAS, just give some reasoning beyond "I don't believe the salesman", and I'd be hapy to hear it. :)
I understand some of the animosity at my calling the EODAS the "best in the world," but it certainly is the best of the declassified systems, and I'd bet good money that it's better than the Flanker-style OLS on the PAKFA.
 

jobjed

Captain
I understand some of the animosity at my calling the EODAS the "best in the world," but it certainly is the best of the declassified systems, and I'd bet good money that it's better than the Flanker-style OLS on the PAKFA.


It's the best of the declassified systems because it is the ONLY declassified system. By your logic, I can say the EODAS is the worse in the world because it is the worse of the declassified systems.

As for your assertion that the EODAS is better than the OLS, that only shows your bias against foreign products.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Here's a question: is this Passive Radar similar to the PESA on the new Flankers?

To start there is nothing really stealth or invisible to radar.

This is the basic concept, stealth is only signal managment, it means the fuselage of the stealth fighter sends the radar reflections away from the source.

So by using the right tactics a F-22 appears invisible, becuase it flies in a range where the conventional radar has a very small return.

Passive radars considers any signal form any radiation source will be useful, the reason is simple F-22 like J-20 do reflect radar, what happens is they reflect most of the radar away from the source.

The theory of the Cassidian radar is any wave reflected by an aircraft can be detected, however because passive radars use any wave frequency, they need a computer power that was not available in the first generation radars.

Bi-static radars can detect stealth aircraft simple because the stealth aircraft does not absorb all the radar energy, in fact RAM can not absorb all the energy, some part of the energy is reflected, some is absorbed, so basicly J-20 or F-22 still send a signal that can be detected.

But they need two or more radars positioned in different locations.


The Su-35 PESA radar uses another technic, the PESA send a signal, but a very powerful signal, so a F-15 can be located at 400KM, a stealth fighter in the range of 100Km.

Why electromagnetic waves are absorbed by the atmosphere, so if the F-22 by canting and faceting its surfaces to radar send 90% of the radar to a direction away from the radar, 5% is absorbed and only 5% is deflected back, the range of detection is reduced.

So the theory of the Irbis is use a powerful radar why?

Simply some of the radar will be absorbed by the atmosphere before it reaches the target, the stealth fighter deflectes 90% away from the Irbis, 5% is absorbed by RAM, but that last 5% has so much power density, that will allow the Irbis PESA of the Su-35 to detect the enemy fighter.

To put it in simply ways, you simply use a more powerful lamp in the dark to see further, that is PESA radar or SU-35.

The Bi-static is like the stealth fighter is a mirrow that concentrates the energy in one direction so you position another radar or observer to see the powerful light like the uses of heliography.


And a Pasive radar is basicly an eye, yes our eyes are pasive radars that do not send light but have enough cones to detect different objects with clarity, but our eye had more computer power than old radars, but that is not any more.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Ähhhmmmm ... guys, come on back to topic, PLEASE !

Deino
 

no_name

Colonel
Not sure if posted before, looks like close-up of the retracting re-fueling probe cover area.

Can see some (rivets?) showing but she has good skin.

2eojfgk.jpg
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Who wants to compare a Camry and an Accord? The same guys who would debate merits of the A400M and C-17? lol
Numbers, logic, and history are enough to make some very decent comparisons. And even when you don't have one of those, the other two can get you very close to the mark. However, not being able to hear from pilots about the J-20's handling is a handicap.

Forgive me, but didn't MiG-29 just post some promotional material as well? It made some somewhat far-out claims as well, and I stated my skepticism and my reasons for it. If you have one or a few points of skepticism on the EODAS, just give some reasoning beyond "I don't believe the salesman", and I'd be hapy to hear it. :)
I understand some of the animosity at my calling the EODAS the "best in the world," but it certainly is the best of the declassified systems, and I'd bet good money that it's better than the Flanker-style OLS on the PAKFA.

First off... u are the one that came up with examples using automobile. Secondly, I never say that EODAS is not the best... if you read my previous post, I said that I don't believe EODAS is the trump card of everything, I don't believe what the salesman said until we see that system in real action plus if a weapon system is being declassified, then it is NOT the best, because why would someone 'show hand' of a particular system to competitors? Unless he/she already had other system under their sleeve.

Secondly, I believe that F-35 is a great bird, a tough cookie in combat, why? It is operational or near operational by the USA... why would USA who had the highest real combat experience around the world make something that underperform operational?

I also mentioned that at present T-50, J-20 and J-31 are still under developement stage, no one know how good their avionics and whatever systems are, in actual fact, the J-20 had flied with Russian engines, and I truly believe that in time it will fly with Chinese engines that are either on par or better the Russian engines that they are designed to fly in...

And yes, I agree that I disagree with u on calling a particular system 'best in the world', because truly there is no 'best in the world' until that particular system was place in direct conflict and battle against any other systems :)

As for Mig29 posting promotional product, he had been here long enough and he had been doing that far too often that I had chose to ignore his post completely :)
 
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