J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)
- Thread starter siegecrossbow
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It's gonna be a while before we see these birds again...
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true, but we "should be seeing their little sisters shortly, so now starts the wait for 2012-13, oh boy, I can't wait????
It's gonna be a while before we see these birds again.
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True, but what I would really like to see is the tall man wringing her out, like a straight pull to the vertical, half roll and split S out the top, shame we'll likely all die of old age before China puts her out there??? This is a large enough aircraft to make aerobatics entertaining, you have to fly it, not just "flick it around".
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plawolf
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Any advanced areobatics will be done at high altitude at the very least, and even then likely to only happen at dedicated test ranges like CFTE. Gives the pilot more time to recover the aircraft if something goes wrong, and also gives him a last ditch option of bailing out if the situation becomes hopeless.
Obviously bailing out is always an option, but with the way Chinese pilots are, I think if they were operating over civilian population centres, most of them will fly their doomed birds until they can make absolute sure it doesn't crash into a school or other civilian building. Can't fault their nobility and sense of duty, but just a damn shame so many of them end up paying the ultimate price for it. At least over a dedicated test range, they won't have to worry about what happens on the ground, and so hopefully will bail out sooner and have a far better chance of survival.
As for flying, well I think the PLAAF were deeply influenced by the French while they were evaluating a possible Mirage buy back in the late 80s, and sent some of their best pilots to France to flying with, and ultimately against French pilots.
One of the big lessons the PLAAF seemed to have taken from that experiences was how critical energy management is in air combat. One of the consisten observations made of PLAAF exercises and displays is how disciplined their pilots are with energy management.
As such, I don't think any PLAAF pilots are trained to 'flick their birds around'. Not really that there is anything wrong with that, as it is a valid doctorinal choice, used by the likes of the USMC and USN Hornet pilots.
An interesting, although OT discussion would be what determines which of the two rival doctrines of nose pointing vs the energy game a particular service choose to follow, but I think that's a discussion for another place at another time.
Wolfie, I used to accuse you of being a "bright lad" so, Air Combat Maneuvering is a "primary" doctrine of "all" fighter pilots, and yes the J-20 is "designed" to be an air superiority fighter to "answer" the F-22. As such the F-22 will do things at any altitude that fighter pilots have dreamed of for years, the J-20 will do most of those air combat maneuvers as well. To see the J-20 at an airshow flown by Col Max Moga would be very enlightening as to its overall "suitability/capability as a fighter aircraft. My point was the F-5, even F-16, F-18 class aircraft are very maneuverable, while the F-15, Su-27 (and its many variants), Typhoon, and F-22 have to be "flown" the whole time.
It takes a very capable "airman" to put these large aircraft through a tactical demonstration and of course energy management is the name of the game. To make excuses for why we seldom see that in China, is really not necessary, and is off topic, to discuss the J-20 and its true capability and how it would "stack up" is on topic, as that is really what differentiates the Fighter Aircraft from "all" other types of aircraft. The B-1 does a very nice aileron roll, and yes there are videos to prove it, the J-20 also does a nice aileron roll, and there are videos to prove that. I am "very curious" to see the J-20 perform basic air combat maneuvers, to see how well Dr. Song achieved his "stated" objective of "matching" capabilities agains the USAF aircraft.
So, somebody somewhere has likely put the J-20 through its paces, it would be very interesting to know how that all came out, as I stated I would love to see some Chinese jet jockey, push her a bit, and yes they do that in all aircraft testing. No need to suppose that for whatever reason that hasn't and won't be done???
An interesting post! Would like to learn more about the knowledge that the PLAAF has gained while training/ excersing with foreign nations in the past. Could you suggest some sources that I can use for a background read in a personal message? English if possible as my Chinese language skills is practically non-existent.
I think it'll be a while before China will demonstrate some of the maneuverability of their J-20. The Chinese are very reluctant to show off the capabilities of their hardware and if I'm not mistaken, it took a while to see one of those max performance takeoffs of the J-10 and they were only shown, in my opinion, because something better (J-10b and the J-20) was in the pipeline.
Furthermore, it is suggested that Dozer (a former F-15 and F-22 pilot) got in trouble for posting too much on the internet about the F-22 even though he said that none of his posts revealed something classified or wasn't public. So I think the PLAAF, which is even more secretive than the USAF, won't allow any substantial maneuverability demo's for a long time. Surely, the PLAAF will push the jet to its enveloppe and beyond to test and find its limits and to write the tactics manual, but these will be done far out of sight.
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The USAF, and USN have had aerial demonstration teams, as have the Italians, French, British and Russians for at least the last one-hundred years or so, starting with the Wright flyer. These Flying demonstrations have served us very well, the PLAAF has no real history of such demonstrations, although their is/are some Chinese airshows. Please post a source as to Dozers "getting in trouble", I don't recall that, but of course the F-22 OVT nozzles, were/are top secret and no one was allowed to photo-graph the rear of the aircraft at airshows, for instance when I saw it at Oshkosh, "Max made it a point that the F-22 demonstration was/is a "tactical demonstration", not an airshow performance.......
The J-20 did a great deal of flying and several aileron rolls and very tight low-altitude turns prior to the new government taking over in China, even the first flight was conducted while Gates was on a State visit, but Pres Xi has closed down that more open approach to government, and it seems that China has withdrawn/shut down some of that candor, even the Chinese people seem "out of the loop" these days, although participating in RIM/PAC will be exciting and IMHO a step in the right direction to participating in the "world community".
My point is that the J-20 is a very fine aircraft, that a "flying display" would demonstrate capability and a show of force, with-out being intimidating, or paranoid......
I think we need to remember that 2011 is the 3rd flying prototype of the J-20. That's not many aircraft and there is a LOT of testing to be done in addition to the high G manuevers for combat. They will definitely put them through their paces...but will they truly completely push the envelope this early in the program?
Yes the F-22 and the F-35 have pushed those envelopes...but they are much further along and using production aircraft now...even for test as we are well aware. I do not know exactly when they pushed those aircraft to their limits...how many aircraft, particularly prototypes they had in inventory before they reached that level of testing. The high off angle type test, and high G tests? For the F-35 it was only last year or the year before, and at that point they had a few dozen aircraft.
It is off topic, but interesting to note that sometime next year, the total number of F-35 aircraft will surpass the total number of F-22 aircraft.
Yes the F-22 and the F-35 have pushed those envelopes...but they are much further along and using production aircraft now...even for test as we are well aware. I do not know exactly when they pushed those aircraft to their limits...how many aircraft, particularly prototypes they had in inventory before they reached that level of testing. The high off angle type test, and high G tests? For the F-35 it was only last year or the year before, and at that point they had a few dozen aircraft.
It is off topic, but interesting to note that sometime next year, the total number of F-35 aircraft will surpass the total number of F-22 aircraft.
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After a while browsing the internet Dozer appears to have retired. Personally, I think it's (partly) because this, but I don't have hard smoking gun proof on this. One way or another, having OSI studying your (online) behavior is I think a blow to your career.
The flight envelope of the Raptor is still classified, though bits and pieces are leaking out. To this "bits and pieces" I also include the airshow demos. I'm not really sure what the difference is between a "tactical demonstration on a airshow" and a "normal airshow". I read that the Raptor flies with full tanks (instead of 50% or less on other aircraft) and sometimes with additional missiles. Well, I've also seen a Super Hornet, Flanker and Eurofighter flying with external ordnance, would that also classify as a "tactical demonstration"?
Surely, the Chinese government allows some tiny pieces to leak out, but compared to many other nations it's still very secretive. Therefore, I argue that you'll most likely won't see much neat maneuvering even if the J-20 enters full operating capability. It's just the Chinese way of doing stuff. I mean, most of us have seen nice su-27 demos by the Russians, but the PLAAF haven't really pushed their su-27s to the edge on airshows as far as I can see on YouTube (if anyone could correct me with sources, I'd be glad to concede). Perhaps it's part of the Chinese lack of PR, but I think it's because of their secretive nature.
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