J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

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Inst

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Source on 555+ km range:

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With regards to counter-stealth, the problem with counter-stealth is that if you don't have stealth equipment yourself you're rather hobbled with regards to countering stealth craft. For example, I've described to you above AWACS + stealth fighters. The key trick with that combo is that the detector is visible, while the weapons systems that kill your stealth aircraft are not. Let's say you do this with conventional fighter aircraft instead. What's going to end up happening is that your fighter aircraft are either going to be pinned up so close to the AWACS that they're essentially conformal missile pods for the AWACS, or your fighter aircraft are going to be spotted at long range and sniped off before the AWACS can detect enemy stealth fighters for them.

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Also, Blitzo, that's the reason you don't see fighters killing each other at outlandish distances with BVR missiles. The missiles need to have a NEZ, in the sense that NEZ means that enemy aircraft launched at from your distance cannot physically escape the missile, and maneuverability on the platform reduces probability of a kill at a given range. Against lumbering targets like AWACS, on the other hand, these aren't particularly maneuverable and your missile doesn't need a lot of maneuvering ability to hit the missile near its maximum range. The R-37M, for instance, is intended for the MiG-31BM, an interceptor, meaning that its extended range function is primarily going to be useful against tankers or AWACS. The PAK-FA also has a 4.9m or 5m bay, IIRC, meaning that the R-37M, if its rocket is relatively compact, can possibly be fielded.

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What if your own fighter fleet also has an AWACS of equal effectiveness, and a similar networked missile launching capability?

It isn't like datalinking and radars with good counter stealth capability is anything new.

China has KJ-3000 and KJ-500, but these aren't a radical leap above the KJ-2000 and KJ-200, and they're L-band, meaning reduced counter-stealth capability. China doesn't have AWACS of equal effectiveness to the E-2D.
 
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Blitzo

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Source on 555+ km range:

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TY, although I wonder against what kind of targets it is, and how it compares with larger land based AEWC planes.



With regards to counter-stealth, the problem with counter-stealth is that if you don't have stealth equipment yourself you're rather hobbled with regards to countering stealth craft. For example, I've described to you above AWACS + stealth fighters. The key trick with that combo is that the detector is visible, while the weapons systems that kill your stealth aircraft are not. Let's say you do this with conventional fighter aircraft instead. What's going to end up happening is that your fighter aircraft are either going to be pinned up so close to the AWACS that they're essentially conformal missile pods for the AWACS, or your fighter aircraft are going to be spotted at long range and sniped off before the AWACS can detect enemy stealth fighters for them.

Wait, if both sides have the right AWACS and the right networking and the right missiles, what's the difference between having stealth fighters which aren't stealthy at all? Unless you're saying the non stealthy aircraft will be detected at longer range, in which case VLO is still an advantage.

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But this is all getting ahead of ourselves. I think we should wait for more reliable evidence that new radars are supposedly X or Y effective against stealth aircraft. At the moment, everything in that domain seems to be a knee jerk response to the prospect of Russian and Chinese stealth rather than some fundamental technological advance that provides a unique silver bullet to VLO.
 

Blitzo

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Also, Blitzo, that's the reason you don't see fighters killing each other at outlandish distances with BVR missiles. The missiles need to have a NEZ, in the sense that NEZ means that enemy aircraft launched at from your distance cannot physically escape the missile, and maneuverability on the platform reduces probability of a kill at a given range. Against lumbering targets like AWACS, on the other hand, these aren't particularly maneuverable and your missile doesn't need a lot of maneuvering ability to hit the missile near its maximum range. The R-37M, for instance, is intended for the MiG-31BM, an interceptor, meaning that its extended range function is primarily going to be useful against tankers or AWACS. The PAK-FA also has a 4.9m or 5m bay, IIRC, meaning that the R-37M, if its rocket is relatively compact, can possibly be fielded.

Yes, I added this on to the last part of my post.


China has KJ-3000 and KJ-500, but these aren't a radical leap above the KJ-2000 and KJ-200, and they're L-band, meaning reduced counter-stealth capability. China doesn't have AWACS of equal effectiveness to the E-2D.

Well fighters generally aren't designed to counter L band radars anyway, so I'm sure they'll have some utility.

More generally, I'm skeptical to most claims that X and Y can defeat stealth, regardless of who they are from.
 

Inst

Captain
Wait, if both sides have the right AWACS and the right networking and the right missiles, what's the difference between having stealth fighters which aren't stealthy at all? Unless you're saying the non stealthy aircraft will be detected at longer range, in which case VLO is still an advantage.

The non-stealthy aircraft will be detected at longer range, meaning that if they're further away from the AWACS, the VLO boys will be able to snipe them off without being detected by enemy AWACS. If the non-stealthy aircraft are close to the AWACS, the VLO boys will be able to snipe off the AWACS without being countered by enemy fighters (maximum range vs effective range of missiles; the AWACS is less maneuverable so enemy VLO can kill it BVR, while enemy non-stealth fighters can't kill the enemy VLO BVR as they're out of effective range).

Well fighters generally aren't designed to counter L band radars anyway, so I'm sure they'll have some utility.

More generally, I'm skeptical to most claims that X and Y can defeat stealth, regardless of who they are from.

Some utility, but not to the same level as UHF. I haven't seen any estimates for F-35 RCS against L-band or UHF-band but I'd bet you tomorrow's lunch that the F-35 has better L-band than UHF-band stealth.

As far as claims that certain technologies can defeat stealth, that's not what I'm actually saying, and I'm upset that you're insinuating that. Counter-stealth technologies don't "defeat" stealth, but rather they degrade the effectiveness of stealth. Think of it as being able to strip layers of RAM off the other guy's plane; he's still going to be stealthy, but not as much. It's not enough to make it so that non-stealth aircraft can defeat stealth aircraft, but it'll make it so that your own stealth aircraft will be stealthier than your opponent's stealth aircraft and thus have a significant advantage.

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Basically, China has two options when dealing with counter-stealth AWACS mated to stealth fighters. Either get your own counter-stealth AWACS, so the differential between your combat equipment and their combat equipment is reduced, or get your AWACS-killer missiles to shoot down the other guy's counter-stealth AWACS. One puts you at something below par, the other puts you at an advantage. And if you have both counter-stealth AWACS AND AWACS killers, you're now at a significant advantage over your opponent, because you now have the flexibility of both having both better detection and counter-detection.
 
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Blitzo

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The non-stealthy aircraft will be detected at longer range, meaning that if they're further away from the AWACS, the VLO boys will be able to snipe them off without being detected by enemy AWACS. If the non-stealthy aircraft are close to the AWACS, the VLO boys will be able to snipe off the AWACS without being countered by enemy fighters (maximum range vs effective range of missiles; the AWACS is less maneuverable so enemy VLO can kill it BVR, while enemy non-stealth fighters can't kill the enemy VLO BVR as they're out of effective range).

Right, so even in this scenario, VLO still does provide a stealth advantage relative to non stealth aircraft.


We know that new radars are X or Y effective against stealth aircraft because they're basically just upgraded versions of old radars. The old radars are known to be effective against stealth aircraft, but they're crippled because they're based on old technology and lack sufficient transmit power. That's yet another difference between Sino-Russian counter-stealth and US counter-stealth, the US has a huge DOD budget to dump into counter-stealth. The Russians have no money and their general technology level is behind the US, the Chinese have some money but they're mediocre in research capability.

Those are shaky positions to speak from.
I could just as easily say Russia and China could have poured more money into counter stealth and have more experience doing counter stealth because of a longer prevalent threat faced from US stealth aircraft over previous decades.


And don't characterize my claims as describing silver bullets. Counter-stealth AWACS are not a silver bullet, they're simply a force multiplier to be combined with stealth fighters. If the opponent doesn't possess counter-stealth AWACS of their own, they'll be at a decided disadvantage. But then the enemy can get around this problem by adding AWACS-killers, which then is responded to by better jamming technology, and so on. It's a never-ending escalation of weapon and counter-weapon and technique and counter-technique. Counter-stealth AWACS doesn't render stealth aircraft obsolete, but it means that enemy stealth aircraft either need to get their own counter-stealth AWACS to counter, or get above the counter-stealth AWACS level with AWACS-killers.

This I can agree with, if we have more resounding evidence that E-2D is as effective against stealth aircraft as that article said.


As far as claims that certain technologies can defeat stealth, that's not what I'm actually saying, and I'm upset that you're insinuating that. Counter-stealth technologies don't "defeat" stealth, but rather they degrade the effectiveness of stealth. Think of it as being able to strip layers of RAM off the other guy's plane; he's still going to be stealthy, but not as much. It's not enough to make it so that non-stealth aircraft can defeat stealth aircraft, but it'll make it so that your own stealth aircraft will be stealthier than your opponent's stealth aircraft and thus have a significant advantage.

Okay, it seems like I originally read your reply wrong.
I said that VLO wasn't a categorical measure, which I thought you disagreed with, when you were actually replying to a different part of my post.

One of the fundamental disagreements so far is whether stealth aircraft are still better than non stealth aircraft, but apparently this wasn't a disagreement at all.


Basically, China has two options when dealing with counter-stealth AWACS mated to stealth fighters. Either get your own counter-stealth AWACS, so the differential between your combat equipment and their combat equipment is reduced, or get your AWACS-killer missiles to shoot down the other guy's counter-stealth AWACS. One puts you at something below par, the other puts you at an advantage. And if you have both counter-stealth AWACS AND AWACS killers, you're now at a significant advantage over your opponent, because you now have the flexibility of both having both better detection and counter-detection.

Well I suspect they will develop better AEWC and better, longer range missiles just as everyone else is.
I'm cautious about labelling particular systems "counter stealth" AWACS or "AWACS killer" missiles though
 

siegecrossbow

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J-20 2011 left for Yanliang testing center on June 17th.

Commemorative photo of the J-20:

r4VZShR.jpg


(Made in Chengdu)
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Why do J-20 or PAK FA "need" to carry anti AWACS missiles? Sure, newer radars will make stealth less of an absolute advantage, but that leads to the question of whether it is technically feasible, economically cost effective and wise to even pursue a means to restore that advantage.

And advancements in radar will also make F-22 and F-35 more vulnerable as well, so all sides will be levelled. But I haven't heard anything about western air forces having meaningful interest in AWACS killer missiles.
I'm not even sure if the Russians are even still working on theirs.

Don't know about 'anti-AWACS' but I wouldn't be surprised to see the J-20 carrying ASAT missiles someday in the not so distant future.
 

delft

Brigadier
Don't know about 'anti-AWACS' but I wouldn't be surprised to see the J-20 carrying ASAT missiles someday in the not so distant future.
What is the advantage of using a very low observable aircraft to launch an ASAT missile? These missiles can often be launched anywhere above a large country outside the range of enemy fighter aircraft.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
What is the advantage of using a very low observable aircraft to launch an ASAT missile? These missiles can often be launched anywhere above a large country outside the range of enemy fighter aircraft.

Fighter Launched ASAT perhaps but not because of the LO The Radar and tracking systems perhaps
 
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