J-10 Thread IV

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
China actually has more twin engine Flankers and J-20’s than single engine J-10’s. This is the opposite of the US that has more single engine fighters rather its the F-16 or the F-35 than twin engine fighters like the F-15 or the F/A-18. And most NATO countries don’t even have twin engine fighters just the single engine F-16 or F-35. It makes sense since singel engine smaller fighters are cheaper to procure and to operate. China should have invested in developing a long range bomber and have fewer Flankers and more J-10’s in her fleet.

The fleet in my view should have been two thirds J-10’s and one third being J-16’s and J-20’s. But China lacks long range strike platforms and the H-6 is showing its age so China has to compensate with Flankers.
There are several problems with this message.

First of all, NATO procuring more single-engine fighters than twin-engine ones is not a valid procurement reason. A country doesn't plan its acquisition around having equipment in some ratios. It plans around acquiring capabilities to generate desired effects in war. It also takes account of likely enemies, likely war zones and existing economic and technological means. So NATO, particularly non-US NATO, is not a good comparison for China. The Pacific is very different from Europe.

Second of all, I am not sure categorizing fighters as single-engine and twin-engine is healthy in 2024. The F-35 has a MTOW above 30 tons. It is almost as big as a Flanker. Any 5th-gen or even 4.5th-gen is expensive and the engine(s) makes a small fraction of an aircraft's price. Since there are real benefits to going bigger I don't see any reason why a country would opt for a small aircraft unless it is short on money. The F-35's size warrants two engines but the VTOL requirement and US Congress mandate forced it to have a huge single engine. It was not a USAF decision.

Finally, long range strike is a luxury capability. For a country, the first priority is not getting invaded or bombed. Bombers are what you do when you finally feel secure enough that the enemy won't be able to bomb you from a few bases in Japan or from an aircraft carrier 300 km away from your shores. China needed counter-air and the ability to strike aviation-enabling assets first and foremost. Striking Hawaii etc is good but it is only impactful if you can handle more immediate threats.

If we stay specific to the aerial domain, PLA ASuW is H-6K/J/N carrying the AShMs and fighters doing the OCA, EW, escort, and even some ISR, etc... The J-10s are not capable of being effective in this mission in most circumstances. They don't have the range even if we assume that they were as capable as the J-16 and J-20. So China needed more J-20s and J-16s, not J-10s. If more funds were allocated to a long range bomber, without an increase in the budget, other capabilities would be weaker. So your fleet composition is worse than the current one in pretty much all aspects. Such a fleet would have more long range strike capabilities but it wouldn't be able to utilize them effectively because of the lack of good escorts. And the situation in the air would be worse because of the smaller number of stealth fighters, and less ability to strike airbases and CVNs.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
[...]

The fleet in my view should have been two thirds J-10’s and one third being J-16’s and J-20’s. But China lacks long range strike platforms and the H-6 is showing its age so China has to compensate with Flankers.

There are several problems with this message. [...]

The reason why NATO air forces have the current fleet composition of single/twin and light/heavy fighters is different. It is the consequence of the history of jet engine technology development which in turn was determined at a key divergence point by available technology of propulsion and weaponry which informed doctrine and tactics. Those result in aircraft design which is chosen at a specific point in time but which is supposed to last 25 years at minimum and that often means that in the long term what was optimal at the moment of decision is a burden later.

US introduced afterburning turbofans to their heavy fighters in the 1960/70s: F-111, F-14 and F-15. F-111 was developed in a joint USAF-USN program where USAF adopted the tactical bomber F-111A variant while Navy rejected F-111B in favour of F-14A. USAF developed F-15 as heavy fighter. The engines were implemented in F-16 program as economies of scale generated savings despite higher cost of the engine.

USSR followed suit with RD-33 and AL-31 in the 1970/80s but due to less developed technological base and differences in doctrine (distinction between "frontline" VKS and "air defence" PVO aviation and resulting roles) they developed a low-performance turbofan for frontline light fighter MiG-29 for VKS only and high-performance turbofan for universal heavy fighter Su-27 for both VKS and PVO. Similar technological issues caused the divergence in radar development with MiG-29 receiving a below-specs radar because Soviet technology couldn't fit required specs in the nose.

France designed engines for their light Mirage fighters so they were forced to follow a similar evolution as Klimov. Britain had technology but never implemented it at scale which is why EJ-2000 made by Rolls-Royce is between French and US engines. Consequently in 1990s only US and Russia had engines for heavy fighters.

However:

F-16 was developed to counter Soviet numbers when SARH missiles were standard BVR munition. SARH is strongly dependent on engine power because it determines ceiling, velocity and radar power all of which are necessary to give sufficient advantage for safe charging at enemy with SARH missile. ARH missiles change the dynamic of air-to-air encounter entirely compared to SARH: ceiling, velocity and radar power are not as relevant. This meant that F-16 armed with AIM-120A suddenly became viable as an air-superiority fighter, and would beat F-15s armed with AIM-7M. At the same time in Desert Storm F-16 was the most effective and efficient tactical bomber winning against F-15E, F-111 etc which meant that what initially was a supplementary economy fighter became the main fighter.

Also improvements to electronics meant that missiles would play a larger role in the future because the development in the field was only starting, while engines already were encountering hard limits which was only verified in F-22 program leading to F-35 being what it is.

Finally Cold War ended 15 years (10 for Europe) into new generation of engines and no viable threat emerged until 2020s. That meant that the equivalent of funding that took engines from first turbojets in early 40s to first turbofans in early 70s was denied for the subsequent generation and all (except the US) NATO countries were stuck with their 4gen designs due to budget cuts. Where NATO fleets were left in 1991 that's where they are today. It's not a consequece of a tactical decision. It's a consequence of a budget decision.

Russia chose Su-27 and AL-31 over MiG-29 and RD-33 because MiG-29 was Soviet F-16 except without Soviet AMRAAM and Soviet AN/APG-68 so it lacked the only things that could make it viable vs Su-27 and Su-34.

China is also driven more by technology than by doctrine. J-16, J-15, J-11 and Su-27, Su-30 and Su-35 are benefiting from economies of scale indirectly (weapons, training, tactics, maintenance) and that is a process started in the 1990s when J-10 wasn't available while Flanker technology was entering a second generation.

J-20 is the only twin-engine fighter that was chosen as such due to its role and J-20s intended engine only recently entered production. So it's less about parameters of the aircraft and more what was most effective at any given moment. Greater range is not the decisive parameter because buying plenty of Il-76s converted to tankers was never a problem.

Also all things considered USAF had to cut cost because it was already very big and very expensive for three decades and existing personnel and structure were the drivers behind the decisions. Two engines are costly because of twice the workload. PLAAF is only now moving into that position so technology still gives benefits and people are not yet the burden.

PAF is so confident in this bird. First against F-15 SA/F-16C/D and now against Rafale and Eurofighter…

It's not confidence. That's the second reason why PAF got J-10C - to gather and send information in a controlled manner. It's also an opportunity to market a cheap fighter. For some countries JF-17 is the natural choice. For others it's J-10C. The idea that it's some type of demonstration or real test of combat capabilities is misguided. Apart from Rafale those are not its intended opponents.

The primary reason for J-10C in PAF is better integration with PLAAF on a systemic level. JF-10 is in the same class as JF-17 and shares most weapons. It's everything else that matters: sustainment, training, basing etc. Once J-10 is introduced in PAF China can use their J-10 stock and support to give strategic depth to PAF's aerial attrition vs India.

RBE2 F3R uses holdover PESA software and doesn’t fully AESA while I’m sure the J-10 radar does.

This is a misconception arising from online conversations on Russian radars.

Russia had this problem because their PESA radar architecture was still partly analog, developed in 70s for N007 and MiG-31 and digital architecture was introduced incrementally over the course of N011 program in the 90/00s because this is sensitive technology so there is a limit at what components can be used and Russia exited the Cold War without a digital electronics industry to speak of. N035 is the first fully digital Russian phased array radar in regular service and it's full of Chinese components because Russia simply doesn't have the industrial base and China is the only source of technology that is sanction-proof or COTS but secure enough.

Russia is good at fundamental science, but fails where it requires functioning commercial industry. This is why they're good at nuclear power, thermal rockets or submarines or ground based radars but fail where miniaturisation is a factor.

France doesn't have the same problem because they developed digital radars long before they had PESA and long before Russia had digital radars and in general France treats electronics as one of strategic industries so technology is maintained as national security goal even if it has no export markets and they managed to get their security exposure to a minimum.

RBE2-AA/AESA has been available for 10 years, and in development for 20, so the architecture already supports "fully AESA". Again this is an echo of what N035 is - a PESA array with an additional single simultaneous beam for targeting and detection of VLO targets. It's not "fully AESA" but technically it is no longer PESA per definition hence the confusion and arguments. And since N035 is derived from N011 it shares certain limitations on architecture that e.g. N036 doesn't having been "fully digital AESA" from ground up.

In general a lot of the misinformation on military technology comes from Russian propaganda. That's 30 years of maintaining rhetorics of parity while in reality Russia was consistently behind in terms of available technology. That stage is largely over thanks to cooperation with China but the conversations from the past influence the conversations now because ignorant people online are more interested in winning arguments rather than learning.
 

Viperzero

New Member
Registered Member
To be clear I am saying RBE2 pre F4?standard does not have the software to exploit its AESA antenna and that I am certain the J-10 radar does in fact have the software to take advantage of it.

In fact, an AESA flew on Rafale in May 2003. According to Ramstein, a migration to AESA has been considered from the early days of the programme, and the RBE2 is designed so that an AESA front end can replace the current passive antenna and TWT. Power and cooling are adequate for the job. A programme called Demonstrateur de Radar a l'Antenne Active (DRAA) started in 2000, and the radar flew on a Falcon in late 2002 before flying in Rafale B301. "It was a difficult integration, taking two or three days," jokes Ramstein. The problem, however, is that DRAA relied on US-sourced high-power processing chips - which, after Korea and the Iraq war, no longer seemed like a good idea. A new AESA version of the RBE2, DRAAMA (DRAA modes avancées), using all-European technology, was launched in July 2004 and will be ready in 2007-08. "We have a firm commitment to AESA, which allows us to propose it for export," Ramstein says.
However, Dassault and Thales are not proposing to make the AESA the all-encompassing RF Cuisinart that Boeing (for example) envisages for the Super Hornet, with features such as passive detection, multi-beam operation and jamming. Nor does the team intend to exploit the AESA's wide bandwidth, which would mean a new radome. (This suggests that the current radome is a bandpass design, transparent at the RBE2 frequency but stealthily reflective at any other.) Rather, the approach is to minimise cost and risk by keeping the same modes as the RBE2, while harvesting what are seen as the most valuable advantages of the AESA. These include a 50 per cent-plus increase in detection range - a better match for Meteor - much better performance at the edges of the elevation and bearing envelope, better reliability through the elimination of single-point failures and lower through-life costs. With only 120 aircraft planned by 2012, the pace of the Rafale programme has been influenced more by budget considerations than by technology.
While the RBE2 AESA does not add any additional modes of operation compared to the Rafale's earlier passively electronic scanned array (PESA) RBE2, the performance in each mode is significantly improved, Thales stated. A key feature of AESAs, a lack of moving parts, has reduced the mean time between failure on the RBE2 AESA by a factor of 10 compared to the RBE2 PESA, according to Thales. The RBE2 AESA will also continue to "deliver full performance if a certain number of TR [Transmitter Receiver] modules have degraded", the spokesperson added, although they did not specify what this number was. While some early components, including TR modules, are understood to have been sourced from abroad, Thales has now "produced a complete supply chain [for the RBE2 AESA], with no critical component coming from abroad".
I also don’t seem to think the RBE2 T/R models have a dramatic advantage over their Chinese counterparts. Compared to the APG-80 which also has about 1000 T/R modules.
However, the key Emirian demand is about the range of the RBE2. And, with the same antenna diameter, the only way to achieve the 10% range increase (compared with the Basic AESA F3 "roadmap") that wish to obtain the Emirians, is a big boost to the power of the radar.

To increase the maximum range of a few nautical miles, we would have to deeply review the electrical generation system of the aircraft.
In short, to conceive what it could be a Rafale-9, that is to say a new aircraft moving away from the similarity you want with french Rafale. The Emirati experts participating in negotiations are well aware of the problem. But they are also used to have very high quality weapons systems. They want to avoid any regression with the Rafale, at least on the radar range, compared to the F-16 Block 60
Awaiting the UAE
DSI special edition , August 2010

With the general Alain SILVY
Deputy Chief Plans within the Staff of the Air Force.
 

aahyan

Senior Member
Registered Member
PAK-QATAR JOINT AERIAL EXERCISE "ZILZAL-II" KICKS OFF IN QATAR

10 January, 2024: Pakistan Air Force and Qatar Emiri Air Force are all geared up to participate in joint aerial Exercise Zilzal-II, commencing in Qatar. First held in the year 2020, Zilzal-II air exercise is the 2nd in the series of these exercises, hosted by State of Qatar.

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The J-10C exercising in Qatar will be very keenly followed by a lot of people. Very interesting to see the results.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
PAK-QATAR JOINT AERIAL EXERCISE "ZILZAL-II" KICKS OFF IN QATAR

10 January, 2024: Pakistan Air Force and Qatar Emiri Air Force are all geared up to participate in joint aerial Exercise Zilzal-II, commencing in Qatar. First held in the year 2020, Zilzal-II air exercise is the 2nd in the series of these exercises, hosted by State of Qatar.

View attachment 123734


The J-10C exercising in Qatar will be very keenly followed by a lot of people. Very interesting to see the results.

Do Qatari EFs have Captor-E radar?
 
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