PAF has been dealing with tht J10s in the Shaheen series exercises for over 10 years now, PAF pilots have shown both in it and against it, of they consider it potent enough to counter the rafale, they must know what they are doing. further more, it was the J10A that was built as a quantity "good enough" fighter. work on the J10B had begun when the J10A was operationalized. Needless to say, China must've had the foresight to realize that a "good enough" fighter won't be "good enough" for long.
J-10 Thread IV
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
This isn't entirely accurate.
China back in the 1990s being more than one generation behind the US in military aviation wrt fighters meant the J-10 development cycles were always considered not good enough. J-10B was presumably in development already before J-10A reached PLAAF service (even if true) is hardly surprising given how rapidly technology was advancing and how many more pieces of technologies were mastered by China before J-10A production was finalised. DSI being a major one but pretty much all avionics was improving rapidly. As J-10A design was set and production was the main engineering goal in the 2000s, improvements would have been well thought through and design certainly started to implement all those improvements. Even the J-20A's use of WS-10C requires some significant re-designs that aren't obvious just on the surface. J-10's role in PLAAF has always been number filler and to be "good enough" for most low tier threats and missions or to supplement frontline fighters with greater number of assets in the air. It was never meant to be a high tier fighter not even the original J-10 program desired this. PLAAF was absolutely in love with the Flanker when the J-10 role and platform was conceived and it was conceived from day 1 to be the low tier supplement. This isn't to say J-10 is a slouch. After all, J-10C has a second gen AESA and capable modern missiles, IRST, in-flight refueling, excellent performance for a single engine fighter, and all the networking it requires.
There is no way to know how well J-10C comes up against Rafale with RBE-AA. A single piece of technology could make all the difference. It's up to PAF to evaluate Rafale through the exercises it conducts with Rafale using airforces. There's only so much revealed in exercises. However J-10CP is certainly a leg up even on the JF-17 block 3 which PAF only just received.
depends how cooperative the Qataris are willing to be. There were news rumors about PAF engineers contracted with Qatari Air Force going to france for training on the rafales that forced india to ask france for details which was denied based on bilateral agreements between Qatar and france. If the news was true then that indicates that perhaps Qataris were very willing cooperate.
jack of all trades also means not being great in all aspect.
By Published: Feb 20, 2022 11:18 PM
A J-10 fighter jet attached to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command takes off from the runway during a day-into-night flight training exercise on February 2, 2021. Photo:China Military
After alleged images of the J-10C fighter jet with the marking of the Pakistan Air Force recently emerged on social media and were widely circulated by media outlets, Chinese analysts on Sunday lauded the latest defense cooperation between China and Pakistan, saying that the move yields great significance to both countries, in terms of boosting combat capabilities of the Pakistan military, promoting China's aviation equipment, and responding to both countries' security interests in the region.
First published on social media on Tuesday, the images show two J-10Cs, equipped with China's domestically developed WS-10B Taihang turbofan engines, undertaking test flights at an undisclosed location, UK-based defense news website Janes.com reported on Wednesday.
"If confirmed, this could be the first time China has exported the J-10 series fighter and also the first time it has exported the WS-10 series engine," observers said.
While the authenticity of the images remains unknown, Pakistan's Interior Minister, Skeish Rashid Ahmed, told the media in December 2021 that a first batch of J-10Cs will be introduced during the fly-past that will be held for the commemoration of Pakistan's Republic Day on 23 March, 2022, according to the report.
"The J-10C will significantly enhance the combat capabilities of the Pakistan Air Force," Chinese analysts said.
"The J-10C is a 4.5-generation medium-size fighter jet and is more powerful than the China-Pakistan jointly developed lightweight fighter jet, the JF-17, which is currently in service with the Pakistan Air Force," Shi Hong, Executive Chief Editor of the Chinese magazine, Shipborne Weapons, told the Global Times on Sunday.
"The J-10C is larger and can be equipped with a bigger active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar than the one used by the JF-17 Block 3," Shi said, noting that the J-10C can also carry more advanced, fourth-generation air-to-air missiles including the short-range PL-10 and the beyond-visual-range PL-15.
"The J-10C is also significantly more powerful than the old US-made F-16 fighter jet of the Pakistan Air Force and can rival the Rafale fighter jet that recently entered service with the Indian Air Force," Shi said.
"Pakistan's J-10C will not replace the JF-17, but form a combination, leading to higher combat capabilities," Shi said.
In addition to the J-10C, Pakistan's other military branches have also recently commissioned advanced Chinese equipment. For example, , and the army acquired the HQ-9/P air defense missile system, according to media reports.
"This demonstrates that defense cooperation between China and Pakistan is going even wider and deeper, and the large-scale adaptation of Chinese equipment by all Pakistani military services will significantly boost their combat capabilities," Shi said, noting that a simple system with most Chinese hardware can also be supply chain friendly.
To China, the first successful sale of the J-10 series fighter and the WS-10 series engine will further open the international market and more countries will show serious interests in Chinese aviation equipment, analysts said.
"Pakistan's procurement of the J-10C is also meaningful for China and Pakistan as a more powerful Pakistan military can better safeguard the shared interests of the two countries in the region," Shi said.
During the induction ceremony of the first Type 054A/P frigate in January, the President of Pakistan, Dr Arif Alvi, said that .
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Really, it was never my impression J-10 was designed as a "good enough" jet. It's a medium multirole fighter aircraft and is still the backbone of PLA Airforce. PLA kept upgrading the platform and trying to maximize its capabilities within the airframe size limit. The latest variant has all the advanced features you would except from a modern 4th gen fighter. This is no different than the aircraft you mentioned. The current PLA doctrine doesn't need it's airforce to operate a lot of obsolete fighter to fight guerrilla warfare in the sky.
PAF pilots are flying the Rafale in Qatar. This isn't a rumor. It's a foregone conclusion that Indians have already accepted:
"It is quite obvious that Pakistani pilots will fly all these aircraft being procured by Qatar. It is irrelevant whether they have been trained in France on the Rafale. In all likelihood, they would have. We must factor this in our calculations."
Additionally, JF-17s already trained with Qatari Rafales last year, in Turkey:
It would be funny if PAF pilots were in Qatari Rafales versus the JF-17s in this exercise lolz. Also, Egypt has the Rafale and we have good relations with them, and if Iraq gets it, our pilots are already there too. The PAF is everywhere in the Arab world man. Arab Air Forces have a lot of respect for the PAF because Pakistani pilots splashed Israeli fighters without taking any losses.
Point being, the Rafale is not a mystery for the PAF, but the J-10C is a complete mystery for the IAF. With that said, these two fighters are very well matched. It's still gonna be a very tough fight for both.
I'm not sure why the word "good enough" is being used for J-10. J-10A is the most advanced fighter jet that China was capable of producing based on their industrial capabilities of the 90s. J-20 is the most advanced fighter jet that China was capable of producing based on their industrial capabilities of 2010. J-10B/C was the biggest leap in electronic capability that China could've made in the late 2000s. J-20 two seater was the biggest leap in electronic capability that China could've taken in the last 2010s. In all of these projects, I would argue that the Chinese military industrial complex was pushed to its limits. PLAAF absolutely loved J-10 when it first came out. J-10C was also the cream of crop when it first came out. J-10C didn't get displaced by flankers. It got displaced by J-20. Flankers will be produced longer by AVIC because it serves certain roles that you don't really want 5th generation aircraft o serve.
But let's not make it sound like PAF is getting a 3rd rate aircraft here. At worst, J-10C is tied with J-16 as the 2nd best A2A fighter jet in service with PLAAF. It should be more than enough to take care of Su-30MKI and any possible super-MKI update in the future. As we discussed further upthread, it should also be quite competitive with Rafale in A2A combat. PAF can continue to work with CAC to make upgrades to it. And if Pakistan is interested, they can also provide license production of J-10C to PAC. Pakistan is a great partner to have in promoting Chinese hardware to other countries, because it trains with a lot of other countries and have had experience with a lot of Western hardware including Block 50. So Pakistan would know J-10Cs flight control system, radar performance and EW suite vs Block 50/52. I would imagine PAF order of J-10C indicates they must have been impressed with its performance when they were training with PLAAF in Shaheen exercises. It also indicates the smaller JF-17 Block 2 had good performance against Su-30MKI in 2019.
At this point, it looks like IAF has accepted that it will not have 5th generation aircraft anytime soon. It's likely to keep buying Rafale until 2030. If IAF goes for a fleet of 150 Rafale, PAF probably will have a requirement for 100 J-10Cs to maintain balance of power. That would be great news for the J-10 program, since it would allow continued investment to improve J-10.
But let's not make it sound like PAF is getting a 3rd rate aircraft here. At worst, J-10C is tied with J-16 as the 2nd best A2A fighter jet in service with PLAAF. It should be more than enough to take care of Su-30MKI and any possible super-MKI update in the future. As we discussed further upthread, it should also be quite competitive with Rafale in A2A combat. PAF can continue to work with CAC to make upgrades to it. And if Pakistan is interested, they can also provide license production of J-10C to PAC. Pakistan is a great partner to have in promoting Chinese hardware to other countries, because it trains with a lot of other countries and have had experience with a lot of Western hardware including Block 50. So Pakistan would know J-10Cs flight control system, radar performance and EW suite vs Block 50/52. I would imagine PAF order of J-10C indicates they must have been impressed with its performance when they were training with PLAAF in Shaheen exercises. It also indicates the smaller JF-17 Block 2 had good performance against Su-30MKI in 2019.
At this point, it looks like IAF has accepted that it will not have 5th generation aircraft anytime soon. It's likely to keep buying Rafale until 2030. If IAF goes for a fleet of 150 Rafale, PAF probably will have a requirement for 100 J-10Cs to maintain balance of power. That would be great news for the J-10 program, since it would allow continued investment to improve J-10.
But it is still in production?