J-10 Thread IV

[Maikeru]

I'm not sure why the word "good enough" is being used for J-10. J-10A is the most advanced fighter jet that China was capable of producing based on their industrial capabilities of the 90s. J-20 is the most advanced fighter jet that China was capable of producing based on their industrial capabilities of 2010. J-10B/C was the biggest leap in electronic capability that China could've made in the late 2000s. J-20 two seater was the biggest leap in electronic capability that China could've taken in the last 2010s. In all of these projects, I would argue that the Chinese military industrial complex was pushed to its limits. PLAAF absolutely loved J-10 when it first came out. J-10C was also the cream of crop when it first came out. J-10C didn't get displaced by flankers. It got displaced by J-20. Flankers will be produced longer by AVIC because it serves certain roles that you don't really want 5th generation aircraft o serve.

But let's not make it sound like PAF is getting a 3rd rate aircraft here. At worst, J-10C is tied with J-16 as the 2nd best A2A fighter jet in service with PLAAF. It should be more than enough to take care of Su-30MKI and any possible super-MKI update in the future. As we discussed further upthread, it should also be quite competitive with Rafale in A2A combat. PAF can continue to work with CAC to make upgrades to it. And if Pakistan is interested, they can also provide license production of J-10C to PAC. Pakistan is a great partner to have in promoting Chinese hardware to other countries, because it trains with a lot of other countries and have had experience with a lot of Western hardware including Block 50. So Pakistan would know J-10Cs flight control system, radar performance and EW suite vs Block 50/52. I would imagine PAF order of J-10C indicates they must have been impressed with its performance when they were training with PLAAF in Shaheen exercises. It also indicates the smaller JF-17 Block 2 had good performance against Su-30MKI in 2019.

At this point, it looks like IAF has accepted that it will not have 5th generation aircraft anytime soon. It's likely to keep buying Rafale until 2030. If IAF goes for a fleet of 150 Rafale, PAF probably will have a requirement for 100 J-10Cs to maintain balance of power. That would be great news for the J-10 program, since it would allow continued investment to improve J-10.

PAF pilots probably had a good, close look at Rafale in Qatari service, it is also used by Egypt with which Pakistan has good relations. India will likely not get any more Rafales in the short term unless it gets 2nd hand ones because Dassault now has a large backlog of new orders.

 

[siegecrossbow]

But it is still in production?

Looks like Guizhou will handle production as Chengdu spams J-20 at full production. Speed.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Looks like Guizhou will handle production as Chengdu spams J-20 at full production. Speed.

Plant split still isn't displacement.
Displaced fighter families in PLAAF are J-7s, J-8s, and early flankers....and J-10c still belongs among displacers.

 

[tphuang]

But it is still in production?

displaced as in its role in PLAAF got displaced by the next generation aircraft. Not talking about production here.

 

[Gloire_bb]

displaced as in its role in PLAAF got displaced by the next generation aircraft. Not talking about production here.

But...they haven't changed their roles with the introduction of J-20. Their relative share in the fleet is still on the rise as well.
The main victims of J-20 in PLAAF ORBAT are J-8s and single-seat flankers (both imported and domestic).

In particular, apparently, the single main victim of J-20 success is the su-35, which largely became redundant right when it reached PLAAF.

 

[tphuang]

But...they haven't changed their roles with the introduction of J-20. Their relative share in the fleet is still on the rise as well.
The main victims of J-20 in PLAAF ORBAT are J-8s and early single-seat flankers (both imported and domestic).

it would be very hard to argue that J-10C is PLAAF's primary A2A combat aircraft at this point. More importantly, PLAAF is likely buying more J-20s a year than J-10Cs going forward.

 

[Gloire_bb]

it would be very hard to argue that J-10C is PLAAF's primary A2A combat aircraft at this point. More importantly, PLAAF is likely buying more J-20s a year than J-10Cs going forward.

I don't think it ever was primary (offensive) a2a in the first - j-10 is "lo" in the end, and it always was the case.
Furthermore, J-10 is simply close to saturation - and we can clearly see now J-10 family won't be used to expand the active fleet.
Yes, there is a rumored J-10D - but we don't even know when it will appear and what it will be. And if it will appear in the first place.

J-20 fleet, on the other hand, is being established right now(rapid growth phase).

 

[aubzman]

I don't think it ever was primary (offensive) a2a in the first - j-10 is "lo" in the end, and it always was the case.
Furthermore, J-10 is simply close to saturation - and we can clearly see now J-10 family won't be used to expand the active fleet.
Yes, there is a rumored J-10D - but we don't even know when it will appear and what it will be. And if it will appear in the first place.

J-20 fleet, on the other hand, is being established right now(rapid growth phase).

What kind of tactics and combat doctrine does the PLAAF utilize now that they have state of the art equipment? Wars are one as much by infrastructure, training and doctrine as equipment. Just see the way Israel kicked the cr#p out of the various Arab Air forces in war after war despite the Arab countries having good equipment.

 

[LCR34]

What kind of tactics and combat doctrine does the PLAAF utilize now that they have state of the art equipment? Wars are one as much by infrastructure, training and doctrine as equipment. Just see the way Israel kicked the cr#p out of the various Arab Air forces in war after war despite the Arab countries having good equipment.

Lack of awacs, lack of proper EW capability. Mig 23 and 21. Vs f15.

 

[optionsss]

What kind of tactics and combat doctrine does the PLAAF utilize now that they have state of the art equipment? Wars are one as much by infrastructure, training and doctrine as equipment. Just see the way Israel kicked the cr#p out of the various Arab Air forces in war after war despite the Arab countries having good equipment.

Apart from the regular training, PLAAF have combat training centers to develop fighting tactics. Based on the results from the training centers, PLAAF would design their large scale cross platform exercises, with predefined scenarios. This have been criticised as too regimented and unrealistic. PLA seems to really like them. I think there are a couple of potential benefits and also have to do with the PLA development. PLA always had a few fighter a generation or two ahead of its main fleet. The best way to get the most out of the legacy fighter is to use them in conjunction with the more modern equipment to form a more coordinated attack or defense strategy.