J-10 Thread IV
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
The WRMEA article contains:
The MiG-21 as most fighter aircraft of its days has a maximum speed of Mach 2. The fact that this article calls it "relatively slow" illustrates its quality.
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- Chinese engineers developed the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel's US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was canceled in 1987, according to the Federation of American Scientists website. The Lavi was based on the US F-16 and built with US$1.3 billion in aid from Washington.
-only in early 1995 did the US government make public its concerns about Israel's Lavi-related technology re-exports to China. David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands
- In March 1997, despite official denials from Israeli officials, the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" restated more strongly than it had the previous year its belief that US-derived technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China's new F-10 fighter. It said, "The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia, with indirect assistance through access to US technologies." In fact, according to the annual intelligence report, "the F-10 is a single-seat, light multi-role fighter based heavily on the canceled Israeli Lavi program"
- In the summer of 2000, the Washington Times reported that a memo circulating inside the Pentagon's Defense Threat Reduction Agency told analysts they no longer had to gain input from the Defense Intelligence Agency before deciding whether controlled technology should be transferred to Israel. The DIA had compiled evidence that Israel had violated US export regulations by transferring missile, laser and aircraft technology to China.
- The J-10 is hardly the only result of Israeli-Chinese military cooperation. For example, the Chinese F-8, the same type of plane that collided with the US reconnaissance plane last year, is armed with Israeli Python-3 missiles. The Python, adapted from the US ALM-9L Sidewinder missile, has a high degree of US technology. Ironically for Israel, China apparently sold its version of Python-3, called the PL-8, to Iraq.
-only in early 1995 did the US government make public its concerns about Israel's Lavi-related technology re-exports to China. David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands
- In March 1997, despite official denials from Israeli officials, the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" restated more strongly than it had the previous year its belief that US-derived technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China's new F-10 fighter. It said, "The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia, with indirect assistance through access to US technologies." In fact, according to the annual intelligence report, "the F-10 is a single-seat, light multi-role fighter based heavily on the canceled Israeli Lavi program"
- In the summer of 2000, the Washington Times reported that a memo circulating inside the Pentagon's Defense Threat Reduction Agency told analysts they no longer had to gain input from the Defense Intelligence Agency before deciding whether controlled technology should be transferred to Israel. The DIA had compiled evidence that Israel had violated US export regulations by transferring missile, laser and aircraft technology to China.
- The J-10 is hardly the only result of Israeli-Chinese military cooperation. For example, the Chinese F-8, the same type of plane that collided with the US reconnaissance plane last year, is armed with Israeli Python-3 missiles. The Python, adapted from the US ALM-9L Sidewinder missile, has a high degree of US technology. Ironically for Israel, China apparently sold its version of Python-3, called the PL-8, to Iraq.
The WRMEA isn't exactly reputable. The primary sources it referred to discussed Israel defense sales and assistance to China, which is widely known, and which no one has denied, but it does not have a primary source backing its accusation that Israel sold the Lavi plans to China, and I could not find any other publications that corroborates the accusation. Furthermore, even if plans were sold to China, that is not evidence that the J-10 is a copy. Those plans, if acquired, could be used for any number purposes that could have helped China with development not related to a straight up copying. The J-10 has without question been influenced by the Lavi given what we know about the history of its development, but to suggest that it's a copy would be ignoring the significant amount of independent work and development that went into the plane and its systems.
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Quickie
Colonel
Aerodynamically, the J-10 is a very different aircraft from the Lavi.
First of all, the J-10 has an entirely different type of wing from the Lavi with latter having a straight leading and a straight trailing edge that is also swept backward (unlike the J-10 which is slightly swept forward.) and the former having a seagull shaped wing as can be seen from the front.
The body of the J-10 is also longer with the canards not overlapping the wings whereas the Lavi has a shorter body with canards slightly overlapping the wings.
The overall shape and planform of the wings between these 2 jet fighters is even more different than that between the flanker and the F-15 and you have to wonder why there is not as much of an accusation that the flanker is just a copy of the F-15.
First of all, the J-10 has an entirely different type of wing from the Lavi with latter having a straight leading and a straight trailing edge that is also swept backward (unlike the J-10 which is slightly swept forward.) and the former having a seagull shaped wing as can be seen from the front.
The body of the J-10 is also longer with the canards not overlapping the wings whereas the Lavi has a shorter body with canards slightly overlapping the wings.
The overall shape and planform of the wings between these 2 jet fighters is even more different than that between the flanker and the F-15 and you have to wonder why there is not as much of an accusation that the flanker is just a copy of the F-15.
b787
Captain
in this issue you have to be fair, J-10 is a different aircraft, not a Lavi, but definitively it has some technologies from it, however according to SibNia, some research was done in Russia,
As a final product the J-10 is Chinese, but it has technologies and research from Israel and Russia, but only in the early version the J-10, the latest aircraft are more indigenized but it has not inspirations but technologies from Israel and Russia.
But true it is a Chinese product with some help from Russia and Israel.
Guys ... I'm just a bit lost with the number of J-10B's manufactured and operational ??#
As far as most reports say, there are 55 J-10B build: These includes 53 regular J-10B (AL-31FN Series 3) + the final two powered by the WS-10B. This number is a bit off, since usually the production numbers are even, so they could be more.
Anyway, given a look on the number of units now confirmed I would say there are 24 J-10B each within the 2nd and 21st Division and all remaining Batch 01 J-10B at the 170th Brigade. Confirmed for this unit is also aircraft no. 9, so Batch 01 could indeed be up to 57/58 aircraft.
However there are also reports about a Regiment within the 19th Division / 56th Air Regiment at Zhengzhou, but since the numbers are always psed, these could also be mixed with the 21st Division .. but we know some images, which at least seem to confirm this unit and via GE there was also a J-10B spotted there.
So was the production block larger than we know since these birds are clearly not J-10Cs?
For the J-10C so far we know only one aircraft assigned to the 170th Brigade, but sadly the final three numbers in the serial number are not known. What unit gained the first operational J-10Cs is still not known, even if a Regiment within the 44th Division is rumoured.
Deino
As far as most reports say, there are 55 J-10B build: These includes 53 regular J-10B (AL-31FN Series 3) + the final two powered by the WS-10B. This number is a bit off, since usually the production numbers are even, so they could be more.
Anyway, given a look on the number of units now confirmed I would say there are 24 J-10B each within the 2nd and 21st Division and all remaining Batch 01 J-10B at the 170th Brigade. Confirmed for this unit is also aircraft no. 9, so Batch 01 could indeed be up to 57/58 aircraft.
However there are also reports about a Regiment within the 19th Division / 56th Air Regiment at Zhengzhou, but since the numbers are always psed, these could also be mixed with the 21st Division .. but we know some images, which at least seem to confirm this unit and via GE there was also a J-10B spotted there.
So was the production block larger than we know since these birds are clearly not J-10Cs?
For the J-10C so far we know only one aircraft assigned to the 170th Brigade, but sadly the final three numbers in the serial number are not known. What unit gained the first operational J-10Cs is still not known, even if a Regiment within the 44th Division is rumoured.
Deino