J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[kwaigonegin]

I believe you are confused between the time it takes to design a plane and the time it takes to verify the design. I do not know how long it took CAC to finalize the J-10B design, but what is certain is that everything on the J-10B is new. As such, the time required to flight test the J-10B should not be much different to the time requires by any new plane.

I agree... in a sophisticated machine like a fighter jet, looks alone mean nothing. Sure the Alpha and Bravo may 'look' alike but from a design and testing phase they might as well be totally separate aircrafts. The only 'major' part which is similar is the engine BUT even then I think the B will end up having the Taihang. I'm sure the initial design, flight characteristics and specifications of the plane were also modeled and focused after the taihang engine and not ALF31FN.

No different than cars. A BMW328i is very different than an M3 yet they look 99% similar. Anyone who has ever driven both will tell you they drive like two different cars. If you are testing either cars you would be wise to have different test plans and have different protocols etc when evaluating each one... what more with the J-10s which has 1000 times more individual parts than a car? dealing in three dimensional planes, have weapons integration, advance avionics etc?

There is such a significant jump from A to B that most people are not aware.. perhaps because it gives a false sense of differences due to the lettering changes. A/B in most peoples' mind doesn't signify major changes... in western aircraft designation,. A to B usually means single of tandem seating but essentially the same aircraft.

I would say the changes from J-10A to J-10B (especially with Taihang) is more akin to the F-16A Block 15 to F-16E Block 60.

 

[escobar]

 

[MiG-29]

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[Lion]

I believe you are confused between the time it takes to design a plane and the time it takes to verify the design. I do not know how long it took CAC to finalize the J-10B design, but what is certain is that everything on the J-10B is new. As such, the time required to flight test the J-10B should not be much different to the time requires by any new plane.

If we compare SAC J-15 to J-10B, I don't think both are technically too different in terms of difficulty but SAC is doubt a good job for J-15S, even a mini serial production batch has started and they will equipped the PLAN soon.

J-10B? It's only delay and delay and no sign of operation. Chengdu shall learn more from SAC how to run a mod project.

 

[vesicles]

If we compare SAC J-15 to J-10B, I don't think both are technically too different in terms of difficulty but SAC is doubt a good job for J-15S, even a mini serial production batch has started and they will equipped the PLAN soon.

J-10B? It's only delay and delay and no sign of operation. Chengdu shall learn more from SAC how to run a mod project.

Hmmmmm... It seemed only a few weeks ago, we were saying "SAC shall learn more from Chengdu how to run a mod project"...

 

[Engineer]

If we compare SAC J-15 to J-10B, I don't think both are technically too different in terms of difficulty but SAC is doubt a good job for J-15S, even a mini serial production batch has started and they will equipped the PLAN soon.

J-15 is not in production. All J-15s are merely prototypes in their test flight phase and are not anywhere ahead of J-10B in term of progress. Talk to me about how J-15 is ahead of J-10B when J-15 is in production with WS-10 engines.

J-10B? It's only delay and delay and no sign of operation. Chengdu shall learn more from SAC how to run a mod project.

Show me proof that J-10B is delayed. We both know you can't.

The fact remains that comparing to J-10A, J-10B has only done a little over half of the seven years of flight tests. When J-10B flight test for over seven years and still isn't ready, then you can come back and call it delayed.

 

[plawolf]

If we compare SAC J-15 to J-10B, I don't think both are technically too different in terms of difficulty but SAC is doubt a good job for J-15S, even a mini serial production batch has started and they will equipped the PLAN soon.

J-10B? It's only delay and delay and no sign of operation. Chengdu shall learn more from SAC how to run a mod project.

You do realize that the speed of development is not dependent solely on technical ability right?

The J15 is a top priority project and is likely getting significantly more funding than the J10B is, that is why they could afford to build more prototypes, and more prototypes all flying together means you get the testing done faster.

If they were so inclined, CAC could have pumped out half a dozen more J10B prototypes and significantly reduced development time, but that would also have significantly increased costs.

As for talk of delay, well do you have official PLA?CAC documents that tell you when they expected the J10B to be operational and that that deadline has passed?

The J10B will have a part to play in the PLAAF because even if by some massive screw up it enters service the same time as the J20, the PLAAF is hardly going to equip itself solely with J20s. The J10B will be built alongside J20s, just like how the PLAN is building 054As alongside 052Ds.

One does not make the other obsolete because they have different roles even if many of those roles and functions might overlap.

OTOH, once the J20 is available, the days of the J11B will be numbered because those two are direct competitors/replacements, that is another reason why you see such a sense of urgency with SAC trying to diversify it's J11B variants portfolio with designs like the J15 and J16, so that they can keep the flanker design useful, and it's production line open, for as long as possible to keep earning profits on that investment.

 

[Blitzo]

OTOH, once the J20 is available, the days of the J11B will be numbered because those two are direct competitors/replacements, that is another reason why you see such a sense of urgency with SAC trying to diversify it's J11B variants portfolio with designs like the J15 and J16, so that they can keep the flanker design useful, and it's production line open, for as long as possible to keep earning profits on that investment.

^ This.

Personally I hope we see J-11B production winding down soon as I think PLAAF have enough long/medium range single role air superiority fighters in the form of various flankers/J-11B and J-10A to a degree. What they need more of is multi role fighters and long range strikers.
Hopefully the J-11B production line will be replaced for J-16 and J-15. SAC's subcontractors can keep themselves busy by refitting existing J-11Bs with some tech developed for J-16/15 such as the AESA radar and integrating new AAMs.

If J-15 and J-16 really can carry the full array of chinese PGMs, AShMs, ASMs, they will be a much more significant addition to PLAAF/PLANAF capability than J-11B.

On the other hand, J-10Bs with its much improved avionics including the AESA, IRST/LR, MAWS and ECM suite, and likely an improved multi role capability compared to J-10A, alongside what is likely to be a combat radius at least equal to J-10A's (not unsubstantial itself, a few pages back), and the ability to carry dual rack PL-12s... will provide a very capable medium weight multi role fighter that the PLAAF also desperately requires.

Anyway, SAC had a T-10K prototype to work with likely with accompanying technical and test documents to help them along their way while CAC have nothing with J-10B.

 

[bluewater2012]

Drag on for too long? J-10B is essentially a new aircraft with new airframe, new aerodynamics, a new engine and new avionics. This means everything has to be tested from scratch. J-10A took seven years of flight tests from 1998 to 2003 for the first production aircraft to be delivered to PLAAF. J-10B only exist for a little under four years, and going by J-10A's example there would probably still be three years of flight tests remaining.

I read on this forum awhile ago (tried to find the post to no avail and lost my origin reply in the process), someone posted an article regarding j10A development cycle from testing to being in production and i calculated on average it took 3 years of testing before being put into production. To put it briefly, it took 3 years for j10A to finish testing, but the ws10a wasn't matured so they had to redesign the plane to use alfn which took another 3 years before being inducted in plaf. So i think 3 years of testing on j10b should be enough judging of past development from the j10a, unless the engline development is the delaying factor again.

Edit: in that article, i remember it said j10A origin intended engine is the ws10b, which wasn't ready. However, from tphuang post, it state FWS-10 and FWS-10A are separate projects where FWS-10 is for the flankers, while FWS-10A is for J10B, could FWS10A initially be dubbed WS10B for the intended J10A? I find that bit confusing, so hope someone can clear that up as I always heard J10A intended engine was the J10A.

 

[bluewater2012]

J-10B? It's only delay and delay and no sign of operation. Chengdu shall learn more from SAC how to run a mod project.

hmm.. the irony. If i'm not mistaken aren't you one of the vocal forerunner on this form quickly dissing SAC when J20 first came out for being ineffiency? Guess now that had changed since J31 and J15 came out?