J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[Lion]

Even without pictures, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure J-10 will have WS-10 and WS-10 is successful currently and under mass production. But not mass enough to satisfy both J-11B and J-10B. Its not easy to rely on a single engine. Only mature engine can do that.

We can more or less confirm the new engine on J-20 is also a variation of WS-10. The so called WS-10G and not just AL-31 with different silver petals.

It will also shut those strategypage idiot or western bias report about China military backward. Some claim engine is the only thing China military rely on others. And China military now 100% self reliance. Nothing is impossible to make. Cost will be the only issue if China decide to import something.

 

[challenge]

while in the west data and information regarding there aviation industries were widely available, but in China like the old USSR, Chinese aerospace industries refuse to provide detail about there jet engine industries,instead everything we read in the internet likely just speculation or 1/2 fiction and other fact.
some of article that appear in the western aviation magazine or in the internet may carry some truth.

 

[airsuperiority]

The differences in weight and power between WS-10 and AL-31 is marginal.

However, 10B with WS-10 and AL31 will probably have different rear fuselages which may leads to differences in the weight and aerodynamics of the aircraft. It is said that J-10 was originally designed to fit WS-10 but then switched to AL-31. That change of engine required significant redesign and took some extra time. Now they are switching back to WS-10, it would be interesting to see how much change is made in the rear.

10B are not in the same weight class as EF-2000 and Rafale. So it makes no sense to compare them based on weapon load or range. But in terms of technology and A2A ability, 10B with ESA radar are certainly in the same league with current Euro canards and should be able to achieve fair exchange rate with them.

The only Euro canard that has an advantage over 10B is EF-2000 with its powerful engines, but it is only equipped with a mechanical scanning radar at this moment and I should still view them in the same league. The future version of EF-2000 will both AESA and even more powerful engine and current 10B will be no match. To counter it, a future 10 variant will need to have both ASEA and more powerful engine (WS-10G or 99M2) or shift to a twin engine design.

Thanks y'all 4 and everyone who's answered me. That's a very fulfilling answer, and exactly what I looked for. Yes I forgot what I meant was in terms of performance, capabilities, and A2A, but you still answered it for me. I really do think it's important PLAAF to have house a sizable fleet containing mostly of 4gens that's at least equivalent in terms of competence against what the West fields, and since EF and Rafale are considered the Tier 1 of the 4gen and J-10B is comparable in terms of A2A, J-10B can finally fill up that spot for the Chinese side.

I hope to see J-10X to be fitted with WS-10G/WS-15, or other variants that can keep China in that league in the future.

 

[Schumacher]

.................

It will also shut those strategypage idiot or western bias report about China military backward. Some claim engine is the only thing China military rely on others. And China military now 100% self reliance. Nothing is impossible to make. Cost will be the only issue if China decide to import something.

You're seriously underestimating the idiocy of the "strategypage idiot or western bias report" my friend. So expect them to continue for a long time.

 

[nosh]

Thanks y'all 4 and everyone who's answered me. That's a very fulfilling answer, and exactly what I looked for. Yes I forgot what I meant was in terms of performance, capabilities, and A2A, but you still answered it for me. I really do think it's important PLAAF to have house a sizable fleet containing mostly of 4gens that's at least equivalent in terms of competence against what the West fields, and since EF and Rafale are considered the Tier 1 of the 4gen and J-10B is comparable in terms of A2A, J-10B can finally fill up that spot for the Chinese side.

I hope to see J-10X to be fitted with WS-10G/WS-15, or other variants that can keep China in that league in the future.

You are mostly welcome

 

[plawolf]

Well well well, the day has finally arrived! It is a very important milestone for the WS10A and China's aviation industry that we have finally seen it on a J10, and this may explain why we haven't seen or heard much about the J10B for a while - they were waiting for the engine and doing integration work on her.

However, it is still important that we keep things in prospective as the WS10A only offers a small thrust increase compared to the AL31, and we do not know what the weight change between J10A and B is, so chances are there may not be much of a performance boost at all from switching engines.

However, in terms of maintenance costs and aircraft availability, switching to the WS10A should make a
huge improvement.

I think that the main reason a lot of people are saying the 1st batch of J10Bs will not use WS10A is because of the recent 123 AL31 engines China just bought from Russia.

Obviously this could mean that CAC planned to continue pumping out J10A/Bs using the AL31 while they test fly with the WS10A and build up engine production capacity.

However, given that CAC's J10 production capacity is around a regiment a year, that 123 engines would be able to cover around 4 years of production. That seems like an unusually long time for integration tests considering that both the airframe and engine are pretty much mature at this point.

Since the PLA has obviously been willing to wait this long for the J10B to be finalised and continued with J10A production, it would appear that they prefer to have the J10B as the finished article instead of just ordering J10Bs with AL31s to change the engine to WS10A later.

This makes me think that the 1st batch of J10Bs will use WS10A, as that would appear to be the definitive J10 version with 100% Chinese content and all the bells and whistles like IRST, ESA radar and integrated EW suit etc.

However, it could easily be that the next batch of J10s to come out of CAC could still be J10As, as CAC finish testing with the WS10A. Having waited this long, I do not think the PLAAF will not wait till the end.

Personally, I think that the 123 AL31s are intended for maybe another regiment or two of new built J10As, and the rest as replacement engines for older J10As.

China already has a massive maintenance and repairs infrastructure built up for AL31s to support their Flankers, so I don't think they will need that many replacement engines. With the AL31 being an imported engine, I think they would spend more effort repairing them than air forces that have their engines made domestically, and this might be how they managed to extend the life of the engine.

The J10B is worth watching even more closely now since it is almost like a trial run for the J20, with the majority of test flight done using an interim engine while the final article is intended to fly with a different engine.

Would be interesting to see how long it will be before the first regiment of J10Bs are ready.

I think the export J10s for Pakistan might be worth watching as well because the PAF would want Chinese engines for no risk of disruption on spares and replacements. That means that the export J10s will either be J10Bs (the F7PG and J7E case has set the precedent where the PAF got a new version before the PLAAF) or it could be J10As re-engined with WS10As.

 

[franco-russe]

The last point makes sense. As I remember it, it took the Chinese ages to get agreement from Russia to use RD-93 engines on FC-1, no doubt because the Russians first had to get an OK from India. The Chinese would naturally not want a repetition of the experience.

But I find it very doubtful that CAC would go on building J-10A at the same time as the naturally superior J-10B. Or rather, that might be convenient to CAC, but not to PLAAF’s liking.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Look what is happening guys!!!

 

[samawat]

B versions looks awesome, but what are you implying, what is happening exactly ?

 

[Lion]

The last point makes sense. As I remember it, it took the Chinese ages to get agreement from Russia to use RD-93 engines on FC-1, no doubt because the Russians first had to get an OK from India. The Chinese would naturally not want a repetition of the experience.

But I find it very doubtful that CAC would go on building J-10A at the same time as the naturally superior J-10B. Or rather, that might be convenient to CAC, but not to PLAAF’s liking.

Where did you get all this info from? It did not take Chinese ages to get approval from Russia for re-export of RD-93 in the first place. In the first place, Russia already supportive of China deal with Pakistan for FC-1 in order to get a lucrative engine deal. It did sometime becos , Pakistan side has not fully commited to the project . It took sometime for Pakistan to confirm their particiation. India never approve Russia of re-export of RD-93 to PAF.. Are you crazy? India and Pakistan are arch rival. Why will India approve it?

But what can India do even Russia insist on re-exporting? India is at the mercy of Russia as more than 50%of their modern arms are import from Russia from tanks, warship and aircraft. India even at one time send Prime Minister Singh to Moscow in 2006 in a last min attempt to block the re export deal but fail. Putin official ink the re export deal and reassure China and Pakistan.

Putin at one time make a sensible comment. He mention India never pressure the western countries not to export defence equipment to Pakistan and why shall India has a double standard and put pressure on a long time ally not to export military hardware to Pakistan?

Steady and stable supply of aircraft engines from Russia is also one big reason why the painful slow process of intergration of WS-10 on J-10. There is no immenient danger of Russia cutting off supply of engines to its ally and friends. As long as you have the money, Russia will deliver. What is the hurry?

Same as FC-1.. Russia never have a problem deliver engines to China and re-export them to PAF.