J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[latenlazy]

I find this not a lot of educated guesses... I find it hardly related to educated.

>>>Originally Posted by Lion
It's not abt cost. Even u are willing to pay. Clearly PLA is not interested to sell. PLA is not concern about whether it will be export success anot. They are concern they will attain the technology edge over other armed forces or rival.

Baseless? It is you who need to prove it groundless, not us. I already give a very clear example.

Accept it! Even Pakistan can afford Euro Typhoon, BAE is not going to install the same,best ECM sensor they have. They have to hold back something in case the thing they going to export going to turn against. Same as every big country who can afford to design, build their own.

Maybe the certainty of what he says could be questioned, but I certainly agree with what he's arguing...

Either way, for someone who would rather have facts, you don't seem to have many to support your assertions?

 

[lcloo]

Agreed with Lion. The Malaysian airforce bought F/A-18D from USA, and after delivery they found that they cannot hit marine targets during training exercises.

The souce of problem was found in the downgraded target acquisition software onboard the aircraft, the Americans found the bugs and solved the problem, but they still refused to provide source code to the Malaysian for the down-graded targeting software.

 

[Munir]

There is a difference between US and China, Pakistan and Malaysia.

 

[latenlazy]

There is a difference between US and China, Pakistan and Malaysia.

Facts?

In any case, the PLA should have even more reason to be wary of Pakistan. Pakistan also has arms deals with the US. An easy access point to compromise sensitive information.

 

[Munir]

Facts?

In any case, the PLA should have even more reason to be wary of Pakistan. Pakistan also has arms deals with the US. An easy access point to compromise sensitive information.

Late&Lazy,

It is well known that Pakistani knowledge of French and US weapons contributed to Chinese designs. You can look at J6, J7P and PG and even JF17. Read some interviews of high ranked people. Pretty much thanks to the alterations on some planes (made by PAF) these products were more exported. Same is true on FC20 but we do not have to go into details. I do not have to share everything. Not that planes were swapped or rules were passed. Pakistani engineers and programmanagers did more then just sign papers. About having plane x and not allowing to spread info is usual contract and in case of Block 52 it is no different with J10B. And it is not Pakistan specific. India has large quatities of Russian weapons and is reveiving now lot of US deals... Malaysia is the same... And pretty sure there are more. You guys run into conclusions without understanding a dimension and throw opinions on the web like it is a fact. Please. It is waste of time and energy.

 

[mean_bird]

In that case, PAF may have to find Western supplier for radar. But I personally think enough Chinese radar firms is in this field to provide the appropriate radar for Pakistan.

Interesting you say that...suppose they want an AESA radar. I am not sure there are enough Chinese radar firms who manufacture AESA radars for fighter jets. In fact, I do not know of a single firm or a single plane that has it as of yet and we are already in 2010.

China not having an export version fighter ASEA by 2012 is not the same as China not having a fighter ASEA by 2012.

If you have the technology to make one for yourself, which according to chinese here are so much superior to export versions, then what will prevent you from making a supposedly inferior one?

See US already has not one but different AESA radars and have had it for some time. TO say they wont sell the radar on F-22 but export versions is understandable and sounds legitimate. China so far has none. To claim that China will have one by 2012 is nothing more than a guess or wish.

This is not to degrade Chinese firms but is logical that to have a competitive radar (or any product for that matter) needs time, expertise, experience and thorough testing. Something I doubt would be achieved in such a short span of time. I don't think even you will disagree on that.

PLA Type 99A2 tout one of the world top 3 best tank is not in export list. Pakistan Army has to settle for second best Al Khalid MBT.

I am not into tanks or other military equipment but a lot of time the reasons are cost. PAF could have tried to join the J-10 program or simply put the requirement of JF-17 to be a medium weight fighter similar to the F-16. But the cost became a determining factor. Getting better materials is not just about availability but also cost.

 

[Lion]

Late&Lazy,

It is well known that Pakistani knowledge of French and US weapons contributed to Chinese designs. You can look at J6, J7P and PG and even JF17. Read some interviews of high ranked people. Pretty much thanks to the alterations on some planes (made by PAF) these products were more exported. Same is true on FC20 but we do not have to go into details. I do not have to share everything. Not that planes were swapped or rules were passed. Pakistani engineers and programmanagers did more then just sign papers. About having plane x and not allowing to spread info is usual contract and in case of Block 52 it is no different with J10B. And it is not Pakistan specific. India has large quatities of Russian weapons and is reveiving now lot of US deals... Malaysia is the same... And pretty sure there are more. You guys run into conclusions without understanding a dimension and throw opinions on the web like it is a fact. Please. It is waste of time and energy.

Are you talking about yourself? :rofl:

So far u have not proven anything, didn't you?

 

[tphuang]

Interesting you say that...suppose they want an AESA radar. I am not sure there are enough Chinese radar firms who manufacture AESA radars for fighter jets. In fact, I do not know of a single firm or a single plane that has it as of yet and we are already in 2010.



If you have the technology to make one for yourself, which according to chinese here are so much superior to export versions, then what will prevent you from making a supposedly inferior one?

See US already has not one but different AESA radars and have had it for some time. TO say they wont sell the radar on F-22 but export versions is understandable and sounds legitimate. China so far has none. To claim that China will have one by 2012 is nothing more than a guess or wish.

This is not to degrade Chinese firms but is logical that to have a competitive radar (or any product for that matter) needs time, expertise, experience and thorough testing. Something I doubt would be achieved in such a short span of time. I don't think even you will disagree on that.


I am not into tanks or other military equipment but a lot of time the reasons are cost. PAF could have tried to join the J-10 program or simply put the requirement of JF-17 to be a medium weight fighter similar to the F-16. But the cost became a determining factor. Getting better materials is not just about availability but also cost.

A couple of things, there are 3 firms: 14th institute, 38th institute and 607 institute capable of making AESA radar on fighter jets. As you can see on J-10B, it's going to use AESA radar and China obviously would have a competition between these firms to see which one wins out. I'm putting my money on 14th institute, but we will see.

Also, I don't want it to sound like AESA radar is that important, because there are so much others to avionics. On J-10B, you see the IRST, the MAWs, holographic HUD, the built in ECM pod, the ECM package n top of the vertical stabilizer. And I've also read about the general upgrade in the situation awareness, avionics architecture of J-10B, but that we will not know until later.

Basically, my point is don't obsess over just the radar. Having said that, I think China will offer some form of AESA radar for export to Pakistan. Again, what it will allow export to different countries is different depending on the level of security clearance of those countries. You simply can't offer the exactly same radar to another air force, because that kind of stuff is pretty confidential to PLAAF. Again, the subsystems that China allow for export is determined on an individual basis.

If you look at the radar on F-8IIM, it's clearly not that advanced and inferior to what you would find on J-8F. If a country says that I'm interested in the plane, but I need some improvements on the radar. Would they do it? Probably, but the kind of radar offered would be dependent on the customer. That's what you saw in the Peru deal. They came back with improved subsystems that were permitted to be exported.

 

[Baibar of Jalat]

Facts?

In any case, the PLA should have even more reason to be wary of Pakistan. Pakistan also has arms deals with the US. An easy access point to compromise sensitive information.

Dont get in a argument you gonna lose, because I have read and continue to read China helping Pakistan in areas of missiles, nuclear, engineering etc

China usual allies such as Sudan, Iran, Venuzela etc are not reliable in a sense if government changes their stance could revert to being pro American esp inregards to Iran. Pakistan has had civilian and military governments both value relationship with China and ofcourse US. Pakistani elites are not as stupid as people make out, they know not to become to dependent on one nation. Chinese govt relise that Pakistan is dependent because whatever govts in power they will still need China.

 

[tphuang]

Dont get in a argument you gonna lose, because I have read and continue to read China helping Pakistan in areas of missiles, nuclear, engineering etc

China usual allies such as Sudan, Iran, Venuzela etc are not reliable in a sense if government changes their stance could revert to being pro American esp inregards to Iran. Pakistan has had civilian and military governments both value relationship with China and ofcourse US. Pakistani elites are not as stupid as people make out, they know not to become to dependent on one nation. Chinese govt relise that Pakistan is dependent because whatever govts in power they will still need China.

That's not a valid point. Saying that China is willing to help Pakistan does not imply it will provide everything Pakistan asks for.

Any Pakistani elite who thinks they should play US and China against each other and not become dependent on China is not that bright. China today is not the China of 2000. I won't get too far into it, but Pakistan should depend on China.

Since this statement may ignite some fire. I will just say this. This is a J-10 thread, please create a thread elsewhere if you want to argue on the validity of my statement that Pakistan should rely on China. I can give better reasoning there.