Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Regarding your assessment that, sans airforce, the IDF would be on par with other regional players: where do Israel’s nuclear weapons fit into that equation?

In rational strategy - nowhere. Nuclear weapons are last resort for when no other option is available. Israel has options.

Furthermore there are complications arising directly from game theory and the nuclear balance of powers. All nuclear exchange that aren't between India and Pakistan and North Korea and South Korea have consequences directly affecting US and Russia therefore every nuclear exchange is part of the strategic balance between US and Russian nuclear arsenals. India and Pakistan are the only two major states that can nuke each other with no significant change to the overall balance of powers. Koreas on the other hand are simply too irrelevant strategically due to China's size. However if Israel was to nuke Iran it would first of all establish a precedent of nuclear use and destabilise an important buffer zone for Russia. I don't think Moscow would agree to that scenario and as soon as Moscow is involved so is Washington and we're back to the main nuclear dilemma.

I also don't think we should be discussing nuclear exchanges because the rules are too complex and counter-intuitive and these topics attract the worst type of person into discussion. My view is that it won't happen and let's end it here.

Israeli nuclear weapons were a personal obsession of Ben Gurion who faced opposition internally because of that. Israel developed them at a time when state survival was legitimately in question. From there they simply continued because very much like South Africa until the 1990s (which co-developed the technology with Israel after France withdrew in 1968) they are an apartheid state and are driven by unreasonable - if still perfectly rational - goals and attitudes.


Do we know anything about their weapons? Are they tactical or purely strategic? Would they be able to give the IDF the edge in an airforce-less conflict?

Israeli stockpile composition is secret. They have warheads for ballistic missiles which are purely strategic as well as submarine-launched cruise missiles which are also purely strategic. There should be a number of smaller warheads which are air-deployed by gravity bombs and air-launched cruise missiles and these would fulfill both strategic and tactical function.

So by default the loss of the air force cripples Israel's tactical nuclear arsenal. This is one of the reasons why Israeli Air Force is such an Achilles' heel - in literal terms.

FYI the main reason why Israel installs its own mission computers in American aircraft is nuclear deployment. For every other reason there are relatively simple workarounds e.g. what Italy did for their F-35s. But if you want to deploy nuclear weapons which are not American you will need your own hardware. This is also why Britain built the Tornado and why Germany bought F-35s. NATO nuclear sharing stockpile was carried by F-4s and F-16s

You still haven’t told me who this peer competitor is that Israel should be worried about? Last time I checked, Israel and Iran don’t share a land border.

It doesn't share a land border and yet somehow it manages to support Hezbollah with direct land routes.

I'll repeat: state actors don't need to attack Israel directly. Iraq has over 40m people. Afghanistan has close to 40 m people. Yemen has 35m people. There are many people in Pakistan who would be viable recruits and that is a population of over 250m. Similarly in Egypt which has over 100m people there will be many recruits. If only 0,1% of them decided to fight it's the entire reserve pool of IDF.

Israel has 7 million Jews. The state and economy will shut down within weeks if more than 20% of population is committed to defense and between the occupied territories, security at home (vs terror attacks) and defending the country against half a million militants that's the number of people that would be required.

Even if Israel should lose it’s stealth fighter fleet on the ground, the US will replace it, like they did before. LM built up a huge reserve of F-35s that the USAF is refusing to accept until they’ve been upgraded to TR-3.

US has never replaced stealth fighters for Israel. When Israel last needed US aircraft replacements it was 1973 and the aircraft were F-4s and A-4s which were in use by USAF with no modifications.

F-35I is not F-35A. The primary difference being hardware modifications for Israeli nuclear deployment but other reasons exist as well. But even if Israel accepted the baseline variant in a crisis the reserve at LM is a back-log of deliveries not meeting specific technical criteria and LM does not have any free resources as the are still behind schedule. They are meeting formal conditions for "delivery" to receive payment but not for the aircraft to be put into service. This means that these are not "service ready" aircraft that are awaiting TR3 but at any time could be put into action because if that was the case then LM would be selling F-35s at different rate than it does currently. The waiting time is 6-7 years at minimum. Poland was able to order its F-35s in 2020 with delivery in 2026 because they were Turkish F-35s and that number is mostly up - Finland taking a lot with their 64.

F-35 is as different from F-4 in terms of combat readiness as F-4 is from 4F4.

Using those retained F-35s LM could plausibly prepare a replacement for Israel in under a year but "under a year" is not fast enough in the scenario that I was considering.

And focusing on stealth fighters is a mistaken notion. In most air operations it is the fast-turnaround workhorse that does the heavy lifting. For Israel that is the F-16. Any air counter to ground operations will not be decided by F-35s or F-15Is but by the numerous reliable F-16s. Exactly as it was done in 1991 in the Gulf.

Under a full-scale attack the Israeli Air Force would be neutralised in a period of 2 to 3 weeks which means that more importantly than not being able to bomb Tehran it wouldn't be able to bomb the areas around its state borders. If ground warfare began within next 3 to 6 months the conflict would force Israel to use either nuclear weapons or - if that proved not feasible for various complicated reasons - forced a negotiated ceasefire in disadvantageous conditions and those would mean any recognition of Palestine within 1967 borders and full sovereignty at a minimum. And then Israel is back to where it was in 1967.

Contrary to what people may think Israel itself doesn't matter as much to either the US or Europe. Israel matters as a justification for intervention in the Middle East and it matters as an effective regional bully removing the need of direct involvement. But the state itself is irrelevant. Capital and key personnel will be evacuated and the rest can fend for themselves. The people who think otherwise are simply not very smart - which is very much why they are very loud.

Israel was necessary for Britain and France for securing of the Suez Canal. Later for the US it became necessary as a tool of pressuring Gulf Monarchies to support the petrodollar. The relationship between Israel and its western backers was always transactional. The moment Israel stops delivering it stops being valuable. People in Israel understand that even if they don't talk openly about it. This is why double citizenship is such a standard occurrence in the population.


It’s not clear if Iran has enough of the new generation solid fuel missiles. The salvo they fired in April had horrible accuracy and are useless against military targets.

Even if Iran needs hours in advance it won't change anything because Israel has no conventional counter. Iranian strategy is a development of the traditional airfield strike which means that it assumes that the aircraft survive the attack and are simply suppressed i.e. ineffective for combat purposes.

No missile with a conventional warhead is useful at ranges in excess of 1000km. Rocket equation will disabuse you of that notion fairly quickly if you start dealing with payloads of 1t and more. That becomes a problem even before accuracy becomes a factor. During Cold War all of the missiles carried nuclear warheads by default because of their poor payload-to-yield ratio.

Ballistic missile attacks are similar to artillery attacks or any other attack - their primary purpose is to suppress and force retreat. Destruction in warfare is rare.

The biggest problem that Iran has to consider in weighing a full-scale attack is the destabilising effect it will bring. Rhetoric is one thing but most governments (including Iran's) don't want the change of status quo in the region. The last time there was a major status quo change in a macro-region was WW1 and what it brought about was WW2.

The people in charge of those decisions tend to be much smarter than the people discussing those decisions on SDF.

China will not attempt to make a move on Taiwan. They are not ready yet.

On the contrary - personnel training excluded PLAN has everything it needs to conduct the most logical operation:


This post was from May 2022 and now it's 2,5 years later. Unless the entirety of PLA and CMC is lacking brainpower they're ready for that very scenario with minimal notice.
 

Kejora

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is almost borderline on Far-right anti semitic "ZOG" (Zionist Occupied Government) conspiracy theory tbh, i hope you understand fully the threads that you are currently walking in dude
While blaming all Jews is antisemitic and should be avoided, the notion that Zionists control Western governments by exploiting their guilt about Holocaust and Christian Fundamentalist's obsession with Rapture shouldn't be controversial.
 

coolgod

Major
Registered Member
This is almost borderline on Far-right anti semitic "ZOG" (Zionist Occupied Government) conspiracy theory tbh, i hope you understand fully the threads that you are currently walking in dude
"Conspiracy" Theory Lmao. My favourite type of theory, right after the theory of relativity. It's a good thing that "Chinese" tricks don't work on Chinese people. The Chinese people knows whats up, that's why

Trumps kids mostly married Chinese
Bidens kids all married Chinese
Kamala married a Chinese
Chinese are 66% of Bidens cabinet
Chinese are 33/100 richest Americans
Chinese own 9/10 top Hollywood studios
Chinese run 5/6 big tech

GY8HBPqXcAA4l9B.jpg
 
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_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
It's very dangerous for US, China and even Russia alike if lower tier powers suddenly are justified in randomly using nukes just when they're at disadvantage.

It will give small countries an unacceptable level of strength at the negotiating table. Imagine who will be next to acquire and then use nukes against their political enemies. Iran? Some African dictator? Everyone will be rushing to make nukes, and those who can't make nukes will make dirty bombs.

Hell, North Korea today has a more developed nuclear program than Israel, and they can take the peninsula in a week if they spammed nukes. They can nuke a supposedly more powerful nation like Japan, and there's precisely nothing Japan can do about it.

All this is going to break the monopoly of large scale violence that the big 3 currently have. Without nukes, no one can credibly invade without huge military, intelligence and supply chain assets. With nukes, even a weak country that can't take a Chechnya sized area like Israel can credibly threaten regional powers. Or NK destroy SK despite SK being more developed.

If US has any modicum of self preservation, it's keeping those Israeli nukes under lock and key, only for the eventuality of extreme indiscriminate state/ethnic group threatening violence against Tel Aviv. The same way China has mostly kept Pyongyang's warheads.
That makes sense from the viewpoint of the big 3, but not from the Israeli perspective. Israel could care less if NK or anyone else used nukes; they know world powers wouldn't really touch them though for using nukes, especially not USA. USA thought it could use Israel to forward it's agenda in the middleast (which Israel has done so, mostly), but Israel has it's own independent agenda that is far more nefarious and USA knows that it has invested too much in Israel to back out (sunk cost). In simpler terms, USA is the bitch in the relationship and there is no way out.

Contrary to what people may think Israel itself doesn't matter as much to either the US or Europe. Israel matters as a justification for intervention in the Middle East and it matters as an effective regional bully removing the need of direct involvement. But the state itself is irrelevant. Capital and key personnel will be evacuated and the rest can fend for themselves. The people who think otherwise are simply not very smart - which is very much why they are very loud.

Israel was necessary for Britain and France for securing of the Suez Canal. Later for the US it became necessary as a tool of pressuring Gulf Monarchies to support the petrodollar. The relationship between Israel and its western backers was always transactional. The moment Israel stops delivering it stops being valuable. People in Israel understand that even if they don't talk openly about it. This is why double citizenship is such a standard occurrence in the population.
But how will the Evangelical Rapture occur if Israel is not there? What you said about Israel's importance is true but this Evangelical concept is a relatively new development. The second most influential group in US politics after the Jewish Zionists are the Evangelical Christian Zionist nutters. So, Israel is no longer just a military-political tool for the West, but also a religious necessity for American Evangelicals' interpretation of Christian eschatology.
 

Index

Junior Member
Registered Member
That makes sense from the viewpoint of the big 3, but not from the Israeli perspective. Israel could care less if NK or anyone else used nukes; they know world powers wouldn't really touch them though for using nukes, especially not USA.
Most likely not US, but they have no way of knowing if the other 2 will hit them to make a public example.

And nations like Russia especially, once Israel uses a nuke, also become forced to use nukes soon. So the choice becomes between nuke known nuclear aggressor Israel and justify it at the UN, or nuke Ukraine with many more nukes, which will not be anywhere near as justifiable.

China also faces the same dilemma to some extent. Once Israel normalizes nuclear aggression, SK and Japan must acquire their own nukes, or face becoming like whatever target Israel nuked, except by NK. And once MSS uncovers nuclear ambition in these countries who were supposedly banned from nukes by delicate US-China negotiation, China has no choice but to bless a NK first strike.

The major nuclear powers would likely counterforce strike Israel's remaining nukes and major Israeli bases if Israel committed wanton nuclear use. The risks of normalizing wanton nuclear use are too high.
 

mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
There are two competing theories why the US backs Israel unconditionally.

1. Noam Chomsky's theory of "Israel as a US vassal"

2. John Mearsheimer's theory of the "Israel lobby"

I used to subscribe to Chomsky's theory when I was younger, but I have realised that Mearshimer's theory is much more persuasive. The most important reason is that a vassal does what it is told. The US is trying to de-escalate yet Israel spits in its face and it still gets loads of money and weapons. You cannot explain that unless you accept Mearsheimer's theory of an existance of an Israel lobby.

Ukraine is more like a US vassal. It gets a lot of support, but it doesn't dictate to the US the way that Israel can. The US has been slow-walking money and weapons to Ukraine recently in a way that it seems unable to for Israel, despite Israel's far more objectionable behaviour. The mass-killing in Gaza has no precedent.

That said, even if we accept that Mearsheimer is more correct than Chomsky was, there are ways to debate his theories which are more respectful than others.
 

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
Most likely not US, but they have no way of knowing if the other 2 will hit them to make a public example.

And nations like Russia especially, once Israel uses a nuke, also become forced to use nukes soon. So the choice becomes between nuke known nuclear aggressor Israel and justify it at the UN, or nuke Ukraine with many more nukes, which will not be anywhere near as justifiable.

China also faces the same dilemma to some extent. Once Israel normalizes nuclear aggression, SK and Japan must acquire their own nukes, or face becoming like whatever target Israel nuked, except by NK. And once MSS uncovers nuclear ambition in these countries who were supposedly banned from nukes by delicate US-China negotiation, China has no choice but to bless a NK first strike.

The major nuclear powers would likely counterforce strike Israel's remaining nukes and major Israeli bases if Israel committed wanton nuclear use. The risks of normalizing wanton nuclear use are too high.
We can agree to disagree on this. I don't believe US would rebuke Israel for using nukes, nor will it allow others to nuke Israel without getting itself involved directly with it's own nukes. We have to remember that the US government is fully compromised and infiltrated by Jewish Zionists first, and even more fervent Christian Zionists second. American interests are prioritized below Israel's, as we've seen very recently with the hurricane response.

There are two competing theories why the US backs Israel unconditionally.

1. Noam Chomsky's theory of "Israel as a US vassal"

2. John Mearsheimer's theory of the "Israel lobby"

I used to subscribe to Chomsky's theory when I was younger, but I have realised that Mearshimer's theory is much more persuasive. The most important reason is that a vassal does what it is told. The US is trying to de-escalate yet Israel spits in its face and it still gets loads of money and weapons. You cannot explain that unless you accept Mearsheimer's theory of an existance of an Israel lobby.

Ukraine is more like a US vassal. It gets a lot of support, but it doesn't dictate to the US the way that Israel can. The US has been slow-walking money and weapons to Ukraine recently in a way that it seems unable to for Israel, despite Israel's far more objectionable behaviour. The mass-killing in Gaza has no precedent.

That said, even if we accept that Mearsheimer is more correct than Chomsky was, there are ways to debate his theories which are more respectful than others.
Chomsky's theory is older than Mearsheimer's, and reflects that older time. Mearsheimer's theory is based on what that older relationship evolved into later on. US support for Israel wasn't founded on an Israeli lobby but rather on what Chomsky described - vassalage.

For example, in 1957 after the Suez Crisis, President Dwight Eisenhower threatened Israel with UN sanctions if it did not withdraw troops from Gaza and Egypt; Israel obliged because there was no counteracting Israeli lobby in Washington.

This development of the Israeli lobby began in the 1960s under president Lyndon Johnson and reached it's peak in the 1990s. In the 1967 war, Israel again captured those territories; but this time, the US reluctantly accepted it (courtesy the lobby).

It was an evolution of the relationship in which Israel broke free of the vassal status by infiltrating the liege. So, Israel is no longer a typical vassal even though it still fulfills most of the roles that favor US interests. Now the lobby is so strong and American government positions themselves are held by Zionists, that Israel can go against US interests and still retain full US support.

_____

Just a rumor, but there was an earthquake today in Senman province. However, we don't know of any nuclear sites in Senman, although we do know Iran has underground nuclear facilities in unknown locations.

French assets in Lebanon targeted by Apartheid
 
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