Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
US does not support Israel unconditionally. The US does only what is necessary to maintain Israel's position as the tool of US foreign policy. US protects Israeli policy toward Palestine because if Israel was forced to revise it it would stop being useful to the US - as the only way to do so would be to transform Israel into a more democratic and less militarised state.

US doesn't need a democratic and peaceful Israel. It needs a rabid dog on a chain that it alone can constrain (but with great effort so you better do what the US politely asks of you or they may get tired holding the chain).

Israel is the tool of influencing Arab dictatorships by keeping the general population of the countries angry at Israel and thus putting the ruling class at a knife's edge because of their pragmatic and cynical attitude to Israel.
This is nonsense. The Arab dictators would be more popular if they weren't seen as bootlickers of Israel (e.g. Sisi in Egypt or the king in Jordan), even if they would still be loathed, just less so. Also: the US doesn't need Israel to corrupt these dictators.

The idea that Israel is helping US objectives in the region is also nonsensical. There is no inherent reason why Iran and the West cannot have amicable relations. Iran is a problem for Israel. It is not a serious threat to the West in any way. Our bad relations are just a function of US MENA policy being driven by Israeli obsessions.

By the way, before the ascendancy of the Israel lobby, many US diplomats were even overtly pro-Arab, the so-called "Arabists". Many were hostile to Israel. So US foreign policy in MENA wasn't always Israel-tilted. It makes sense to have good relations with all sides and to extract maximum benefit rather than take one side blindly (Israel's) and give them unconditional aid.

Your theory falls apart because it doesn't explain US policy prior to the ascendancy of the Israel lobby (1900-1980). Make no mistake: the US is hardly an angel. They did tons of coups and overthrowing regimes. But they never shifted towards one side blindly before the Israel lobby gained prominence the way it did now. And they generally speaking kept US troops out of the regional conflicts. There was no Iraq war-equivalent in prior decades. And that war had a lot of crucial input from Israel, including Bibi himself, as well as Jewish neocons in the Bush admin. Hussein was a known hostile force against Israel. Mearsheimer writes about the crucial impact the Israel lobby had in the run-up to the Iraq war.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Robert Kagan, Paul Wolfowitz are good examples of US Jewish Neocons who supported the Iraqi war.
If you read the PNAC communique written just before Bush was elected it explicitly stated the US should simultaneously invade Iraq and North Korea. This was supposed to free US troops stationed in Kuwait and South Korea for a later invasion of Iran. And this was supposed to allow the US to control the spigots of Middle Eastern oil so they could contain China better.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is nonsense. The Arab dictators would be more popular if they weren't seen as bootlickers of Israel (e.g. Sisi in Egypt or the king in Jordan), even if they would still be loathed, just less so. Also: the US doesn't need Israel to corrupt these dictators.

The idea that Israel is helping US objectives in the region is also nonsensical. There is no inherent reason why Iran and the West cannot have amicable relations. Iran is a problem for Israel. It is not a serious threat to the West in any way. Our bad relations are just a function of US MENA policy being driven by Israeli obsessions.

By the way, before the ascendancy of the Israel lobby, many US diplomats were even overtly pro-Arab, the so-called "Arabists". Many were hostile to Israel. So US foreign policy in MENA wasn't always Israel-tilted. It makes sense to have good relations with all sides and to extract maximum benefit rather than take one side blindly (Israel's) and give them unconditional aid.

Your theory falls apart because it doesn't explain US policy prior to the ascendancy of the Israel lobby (1900-1980). Make no mistake: the US is hardly an angel. They did tons of coups and overthrowing regimes. But they never shifted towards one side blindly before the Israel lobby gained prominence the way it did now. And they generally speaking kept US troops out of the regional conflicts. There was no Iraq war-equivalent in prior decades. And that war had a lot of crucial input from Israel, including Bibi himself, as well as Jewish neocons in the Bush admin. Hussein was a known hostile force against Israel. Mearsheimer writes about the crucial impact the Israel lobby had in the run-up to the Iraq war.
I would think that US policy towards Iran is greatly influenced by the humiliation of the hostage crisis during the Iranian revolution whereby the US appointed Shah was overthrown. The US is not easy to forget an insult. Just take a look at Cuba. They’ve been under US sanctions for close to 70 years.

When the US invaded Iraq in 2003, Israel was fuming. They blamed the US for attacking the “wrong” country: in their opinion it should’ve been Iran. But the US doesn’t forgive lightly insults and disobedience from a former ally.
 

MortyandRick

Senior Member
Registered Member
Hezbolllah is fighting back as hard as they can, but unfortunately for them it is falling far short of even the most pessimistic expectations.
What were these "pessimistic expectation" and who said it?

Is the war over already? Has Israel made a lot of gains in their land campaign? Which is where Hezbollah would have the most resistance?

Sounds like you are calling it victory for Israel already. I wonder if their soldiers feel the same way.

We're not hearing much about the land campaign. I would have thought if Israel was winning so handily, there would be a lot more posts on their victories.
 

FriedButter

Major
Registered Member
This is almost borderline on Far-right anti semitic "ZOG" (Zionist Occupied Government) conspiracy theory tbh, i hope you understand fully the threads that you are currently walking in dude
While blaming all Jews is antisemitic and should be avoided, the notion that Zionists control Western governments by exploiting their guilt about Holocaust and Christian Fundamentalist's obsession with Rapture shouldn't be controversial.

Popular right wing individuals insist that the US is above Israel and gets extremely defensive when told otherwise. However, the reality shows otherwise with Israel being above the US.

US to give Israel 'compensation', if it hits acceptable targets in Iran - report​

The US has reportedly offered Israel a "compensation package" if it refrains from attacking certain targets in Iran, according to a report in Kan11 on Sunday.
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_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
I would think that US policy towards Iran is greatly influenced by the humiliation of the hostage crisis during the Iranian revolution whereby the US appointed Shah was overthrown. The US is not easy to forget an insult. Just take a look at Cuba. They’ve been under US sanctions for close to 70 years.
Didn't take long for the US to forget the USS Liberty Incident in which Israel bombed an American ship resulting in 205 American casualties.

When the US invaded Iraq in 2003, Israel was fuming. They blamed the US for attacking the “wrong” country: in their opinion it should’ve been Iran. But the US doesn’t forgive lightly insults and disobedience from a former ally.
What are you on? Israel was literally, explicitly pressuring US to invade Iraq.

Netanyahu, 2002, in front of American Congress
'If you invade Iraq, [revolution] will occur in Iran' .... totally contradicting your statements.
 
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Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
What are you on? Israel was literally, explicitly pressuring US to invade Iraq.

Netanyahu, 2002, in front of American Congress
'If you invade Iraq, [revolution] will occur in Iran' .... totally contradicting your statements.
That Iraq was not Israel’s preferred target, but Iran was, comes straight out of the mouth of John Mearsheimer who wrote a book on this subject. Benjamin was selling a strategy the neocons had already decided upon without consulting him, as a loyal vassal is expected. Here:
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
Didn't take long for the US to forget the USS Liberty Incident in which Israel bombed an American ship resulting in 205 American casualties.


What are you on? Israel was literally, explicitly pressuring US to invade Iraq.

Netanyahu, 2002, in front of American Congress
'If you invade Iraq, [revolution] will occur in Iran' .... totally contradicting your statements.
the most ironic thing is that that Iraq was Iran biggest enemy in the Middle East by removing Saddam helped Iran to cement their position inside Iraq and across the Middle East.
 

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
That Iraq was not the preferred target, but Iran was comes straight out of the mouth of John Mearsheimer who wrote a book on this subject. Here:
I've noted you like to dig yourself into inescapable holes.
The problem is what Mearsheimer is stating is a claim only while the opposite what Netanyahu stated is explicit, verbatim, on video record in front of Congress. In other words, what you're implying is that Netanyahu's explicit statements in front of Congress simply did not happen, even though there is video evidence right in front of you.

Mearsheimer's assessment may be true, as he mentioned "early 2002", while Netanyahu's speech was later in Sept '02. But both Mearsheimer and Netanyahu's statements are congruent in that "if you invade Iraq [FIRST], [revolution] will occur in Iran [SECOND]". And both are negating your original claim..,

What's totally without evidence is your original claim that 'Israel was fuming in 2003 for attacking the wrong guy'. There is literal evidence right in front of you of Israel vouching for attacking Iraq FIRST (and even suggesting that attacking Iran may not be necessary).
 
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